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Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

eugenewei.com

101–110 of 141 posts

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#101

Amazon only has around 10 more years before 3d printing starts to kill retail. Beware.

ebooks were the far far bigger challange for Amazon compared to 3d printing. Printing clothes? Printing Mobiles? Printing Washing machines?

Never. Ever.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#102
post #55
post #22

There are some issues with this explanation. The main issue is that the rules of accounting have a very good provision to take into account investing into the future. It is called capitalization. Thus, if a company spends money to build or acquire a new asset, it is called capital spending and it is not subtracted from the profits. Thus, for example, if a company had a million dollars of profit and decided to spend t…

The accounting rules (GAAP) have only a loose correlation to how most modern large companies actually operate the levers of their businesses. Management teams of well-run companies spend very little time thinking about the formal financial statements. Accounting bears the same relationship to actually running a business that the Efficient Market Hypothesis does to actually effectively investing -- which is to say, al…

"Management teams of well-run companies spend very little time thinking about the formal financial statements."

Not true at all. Well run companies do spend a lot of time in preparing their financial statements. First, it is required by law, see - Dodd-Frank, Sarbanes-Oxley, etc.

Second, it can get well-run companies with good intentions into a lot of trouble with the SEC and investor lobbying groups.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#103
post #65
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how capital expenditures do not affect profits? Doesn't capitalization just mean that expenses are applied over time? They don't disappear, correct?

Capital expenses do not affect profits for the reporting period they happen in. It is true that after that reporting period there is a depreciation cost applied to take account of loss of value of an asset. For example, if a company buys a distribution center, it will not expense the cost of the distribution center as an expense. But as time goes on it will expense a depreciation expense that accounts for the loss of…

So all capital expenditures reduce income. That's what I thought. I've never understood why folks don't think "pay later" = "pay".

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

281M of stock-based compensation ... ended the quarter with about $100 million more cash than they started with. This looks like a loss to me. They could have sold $281M of stock and gotten $281M in cash; instead they ended up $181M short of that.

In general when you're a CEO or board member you'll make more money by granting yourself $x million in stock than you'll make by paying a dividend of $x million which has to be shared among all investors.

Not to mention, there are tax benefits to stock based comp. First, you often have the choice of when to exercise the stock which can make a world of difference especially with AMT, and second, if you hold for a year you'll pay the long term cap gains rate. For lower income people (hehe in this case that would be people who make less than $400k) that's still 15% which is an incredible discount. For higher income folks it's now about 23% but, again, that represents a tidy discount against their marginal tax rate.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#105
post #25
post #22

There are some issues with this explanation. The main issue is that the rules of accounting have a very good provision to take into account investing into the future. It is called capitalization. Thus, if a company spends money to build or acquire a new asset, it is called capital spending and it is not subtracted from the profits. Thus, for example, if a company had a million dollars of profit and decided to spend t…

Can you explain how capital expenditures do not affect profits? Doesn't capitalization just mean that expenses are applied over time? They don't disappear, correct?

Profit is how much your total assets have increased in value. Cash is an asset and a warehouse is an asset. If you spend $1m of your cash that would otherwise have been cash profits to build a warehouse worth $1m, your total assets remain the same and thus your profits remain the same.

But, unlike cash, a building doesn't retain its (dollar) value forever, it must be written off. I'm not sure how buildings are written off since they have a rather long "shelf" life, but laptops are generally written off over three year. So if you buy a $1500 laptop with cash in year 0, your profits in year zero are unaffected, but you must book a depreciation (a reduction in the value of your assets) worth $500 in years 1, 2 and 3. Hopefully you will, as with your warehouse, use your new asset to book profits in each of these years in excess of your write-offs.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#106
post #42

If you're not familiar with the "long-term" thinking of Bezos, this anecdote from Brad Stone's recent book on Amazon is particularly interesting: Bezos wanted AWS to be a utility with discount rates, even if that meant losing money in the short term. Willem van Biljon, who worked with Chris Pinkham on EC2 and stayed for a few months after Pinkham quit in 2006, proposed pricing EC2 instances at fifteen cents an hour,…

That's probably one of the reasons why Amazon has been undercutting almost everyone time & time again. With their razon thin margins they have nowhere to go but up. Even when they don't go down as much as the markets think they would their stock goes up.

Other retailers & technology companies don't have that luxury. They can't lose money at the cost of margin contraction or market share expansion. Heck, they can't lose money at all the way Amazon has been doing since its inception!

It's high time Bezos repeated the "Steve Jobs's mistake". Not that Amazon shareholders want them to.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that GAAP only vaguely represents reality, Management teams of all well run companies /DO/ think about formal financial statements. These statements require thought or liability to potential jail time. In addition, the impact of these statements on financial markets (ie: stock price) is tremendous. Management damn well should be thinking about shareholder value.

> liability to potential jail time Are there any examples of this? It seems to me the SEC didn't make much use of all the archived emails (guaranteed to be in place due to SOX) during the 2008 banking crisis which makes me generally distrustful of these formal written rules.

Yes, WorldCom leaps to mind

http://www.accounting-degree.org/scandals/

They misstated costs as investments and were able to show big profits - for a while.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#108
Bezos has found and hacked a feature of public markets: you can get away with no profits as long as you're growing. Therefore, you can construct a profitless business scheme that reinvests all profits (or doesn't generate any) as long as your sales forever climb. It's the business equivalent of the Ponzi scheme--and if you look at Amazon's revenue, it is a classic exponential curve.

If sales ever plateau and investors force you to generate profits, the plane stalls and the whole thing spirals down, because it's the profit reinvestment which actually drives sales growth, and actual profits attract competitors who have been unable to pull off the profitless-hyper-growth trick. So far that hasn't happened.

Amazon's value is in the entire business and not the sum of its parts, which means that at some point, investors expect to own a profit making enterprise and not a bunch of warehouses. However, that won't happen until sales plateau or Bezos dies. Ironically, at that point the business loses a lot of value, both because growth has stopped and because competitors are about to enter the space, emboldened by Amazon's newly discovered profits. The whole thing is a bit of a sham. Any growth industry (Internet retail) can support only one "no profit rocket," and eventually it comes back to earth when that industry matures and ends the hypergrowth phase.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#109
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm a big fan of Bezos, honestly, but to say that pricing your products in such a way as to make >$100 billion in cash is a "mistake"... that's just crazy talk.

Meanwhile, the iPhone has slowly but steadily been losing mindshare to its amazing competition.

So a company essentially invents a segment, so de facto owns 100% mindshare, and the fact that competition shows up over the next several years is somehow..... what? A sign Apple did something wrong?

And if only Apple had the sense not to make any money off the iPhone, they'd hold all the "mindshare"?

As an investor in both companies (though I recently sold my AMZN position), I'm quite pleased with Apple's decision to value revenue over "mindshare." The iPhone business was and is bigger in itself than many entire Fortune 500 companies.

Re: Amazon and the "profitless business model" fallacy

#110
post #42

If you're not familiar with the "long-term" thinking of Bezos, this anecdote from Brad Stone's recent book on Amazon is particularly interesting: Bezos wanted AWS to be a utility with discount rates, even if that meant losing money in the short term. Willem van Biljon, who worked with Chris Pinkham on EC2 and stayed for a few months after Pinkham quit in 2006, proposed pricing EC2 instances at fifteen cents an hour,…

This exposes the flaw in the article's argument. The author argues that Amazon can simply choose to stop or slow down their investment for growth. But a lot of that "investment" is actually customer subsidies like lower prices or free shipping. As soon as Amazon ceases those, they will face stronger competition from established profitable businesses like Walmart.
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