Melatonin • Hacker News Board

Re: Melatonin

#101

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 4:52 PM UTC

Interesting data about melatonin, but I am very wary of appeals to "nature" and "natural" in articles like this. Such references are often proxies for the concept of "good" or "healthy", but that's not necessarily true. Epidermal sun damage is natural too.

For example biphasic sleep is a pattern that arises when the darkness period is significantly longer than the human need for sleep. If the darkness period is reduced to about the same length as the sleep need, then the sleep period is less interrupted. But humans are not any more or less healthy under either sleep regime.

Re: Melatonin

#102

Post by Zenst » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 4:54 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #80

Zenst wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is that it is a natural chemical and with that nobody can patent it. The cost for drug approval (in many countries) is high and this is the crux. No company is going to finance the approval process as they have no way to control there financial return upon that investment as they can not patent the drug they are getting approval upon. So everybody else can just ride there investment and that is the cas…

Companies can obtain market exclusivity without a patent. In the US, the FDA assigns 5 years of market exclusivity based on a NDA approval. If it's an orphan disease, it's 7 years. You can also bump up the exclusivity by 6 months if you get approved in a pediatric indication. That said, there isn't much incentive for a company to do this. Let's say a company spend $200M getting FDA approval for melatonin. Considering…

That is encouraging, sadly not aware of anything comparable in the UK, though was unaware of this avenue you mention and with that thank you.

Sad about the investment needed for the limited return window which would be enough time to promote the benifits intime for the market to mature just outside the window of opertunity.

Does make you wonder how many good useful medications are kept back due too fiscal investment to get the various approvals. Not aware of a universal World accepted standard of drug approval, certainly would make sense cost wise for the global return. But guess there is money in running trials as well.

Re: Melatonin

#103

Post by tokenadult » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

pesenti wrote: post #51

Melatonin is a clear-cut Good Thing. The gains I have laid out are large enough I consider it irrational for someone not to use it. I consider it irrational for someone to believe that a limited number of hand-selected studies can give you absolute confidence.

In general, the pattern of regulation of "dietary supplements"[1] in United States law allows a lot of claims that go beyond the available evidence to be made without legal consequences. In an environment like this, I would do more than just listen to anecdotes from satisfied users.

[1] "Dietary supplement industry says 'no' to more information for consumers (again)" 3 October 2013

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/big-supp-resists-giving-...

Re: Melatonin

#104

Post by julioademar » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

pesenti wrote: post #72

thebooktocome wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it's not a "limited number of hand-selected studies." The Brzezinski meta-study ( http://www.gwern.net/docs/melatonin/2005-brzezinski.pdf ) alone covered 17 studies and 284 participants. There's even a clear, well-documented causal mechanism, which can't be said for most of the supplement industry. Even if it were a limited number of studies, gwern's not going for "absolute confidence". (Indeed, requiring "abs…

And how do you claim to calculate expected value here? You are making the same error he is by ignoring the possible "black swan", which, with every drug, can have dramatic consequences. A positive but cautious conclusion like http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/m... would have been much more appropriate.

I recommend you read the article first. Check out the ROI section: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin#roi

Re: Melatonin

#105

Post by pstuart » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

jobu wrote: post #98

My youngest daughter is borderline ADHD, and rather than trying Ritalin we've been using Melatonin in the evenings to help ease the bedtime process. (In the hopes that more sleep will help her cope with problems focusing.) The change has been dramatic. Previously it was a 3-4 hour battle each night for her to get ready for bed and stay in bed. Now with 3mg of Melatonin she spontaneously decides to get ready for bed h…

3mg might be too much. I am not a doctor, but my sleep doctor is, and she recommended half that amount -- right around sunset.

Re: Melatonin

#106

Post by smokey_the_bear » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 5:01 PM UTC

I used to have a wildly erratic sleep schedule. Then I had a baby. Now I sleep from 10 pm to 7 am every single night.

While I know a lot of people have sleep disorders, I think a lot of people have bad sleep schedules simply because they can.

Re: Melatonin

#107

Post by nickthemagicman » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

This is very interesting. Wish hacker news had more hacking the human body articles.

Re: Melatonin

#108

Post by robhu » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

thenomad wrote: post #92

DanBC wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia suggests prescription only in the UK. I think this is because it was banned as a food supplement in the 1990s, and only one medication got a licence, and that was a POM. Thus, any melatonin product is either an unlicensed medication (illegal) or prescription only. The page you link to doesn't allow me to buy any product. Entering [melatonin] in their search box doesn't return any products containing melaton…

Thanks for the detailed reply! Having looked into it a bit further - yep, you're right.

You can buy melatonin online in the UK from Biovea http://www.biovea.com/uk/product_detail.aspx?NAME=MELATONIN-...

Re: Melatonin

#109

Post by meepmorp » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

smokey_the_bear wrote: post #106

I used to have a wildly erratic sleep schedule. Then I had a baby. Now I sleep from 10 pm to 7 am every single night. While I know a lot of people have sleep disorders, I think a lot of people have bad sleep schedules simply because they can.

I assume your child is grown up, because 10 hrs of sleep a night for someone with an infant is absurd. And unfair.

Re: Melatonin

#110

Post by lotsofcows » Fri, Oct 04, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

smokey_the_bear wrote: post #106

I used to have a wildly erratic sleep schedule. Then I had a baby. Now I sleep from 10 pm to 7 am every single night. While I know a lot of people have sleep disorders, I think a lot of people have bad sleep schedules simply because they can.

Post-children I try to go to sleep at 10pm (been an "owl" for most of my life) and am forced roughly awake at 6.30am (if I'm lucky).