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Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

ryanbennett.com

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Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#101

Post by narshe »

corresation wrote: post #69
redact207 wrote: post #25

Tried reading this but the site was down... ironically. I've been developing the .NET stack for 10 years now and would have to say straight ASP.NET is the easiest way to add the most horrible amount of bloat to your pages and bring about horrible performance. My gut feel is that it was made to allow application developers to build intranet sites without having to worry about the stateless nature of HTTP. The result w…

MVC4 with AngularJS Why combine a server-side MVC with a client-side MVC? Honestly the ASP.NET MVC advocacy doesn't make sense to me. It is a solution that half brings .NET developers into the modern era. Using it purely as a service layer is that project essentially trying to maintain relevance in the face of irrelevance.

Why combine? Because the server side infrastructure is a lot more flexible with MVC (than WebForms) and follows how HTML is supposed to work.

If you're developing an API or service, use WebAPI instead. It solves most of the issues people have with MVC. MVC is still simple and easy to use to create services with, and I'd still recommend it to people.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#102

Post by josefresco »

gizzlon wrote: post #61
josefresco wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, however there is no defining line for the non-tech savvy that determines what is bleeding edge, and what isn't. Is Ruby going to be around in 5 years? If Ruby is around, will I be able to hire developers easily and for a reasonable price? These are concerns that drive businesses for whom tech is a necessity but not the core of their business. So the business owner relies on the tech provider who hopefully is…

Is Ruby going to be around in 5 years? Ruby (the language) and rails (the web-framework) are not the latest fads to come out. Rails hit 1.0 in 2005, a.k.a. almost 8 years ago, ruby is much older. Although there can be good reasons to choose something new, I agree with your overall sentiment. But we seem to have extremely different views on what constitutes "new"(node might qualify :)

I wasn't specifically using Ruby as an example of new/unstable tech. My point was that your average business owner doesn't know Ruby from ASP from Perl. It becomes the job of the tech provider to implement technology that not only serves the need now, but also the need years down the road.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#103

Post by narshe »

spongle wrote: post #98
narshe wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the complexity issue, and how large corps deal with that stuff... There are other ways you can chunk that stuff up though. Maybe you don't have a choice. I don't think you can fault Visual Studio for not handling that many projects well.

Agree but we don't have much of a choice. The cost and risk associated with cleaning it up is actually more expensive than leaving it. Visual Studio would do fine if it was a 64-bit binary. The memory ceiling of 32-bit processes is the problem. People have been calling for 64-bit Visual Studio for a long time. That is their fault.

Yes, 64 bit would be nice. There are a lot of complexities that go along with that though. No plugins would work. There is a reason that browsers aren't 64 bit and flash will never be updated to 64 bit.

It's possible, just a ton of work, and everyone will have to come along. This was a huge issue with Vista. MS introduces a new way of doing thing, and all the software vendors don't update their drivers to work with it, and now it's MS's fault for having a crappy OS. They will need to make the transition at some point, and the sooner the better IMO.

So I agree with you, but someone on your project should have started refactoring before it got out of hand. Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, and this happens to most projects at corporations. The business doesn't want to pay for something that doesn't make them money. What they never realize is how much money it will save them down the road. One team I was on built in 1/4 of our sprint time dedicated to refactoring things. It was just a part of the business cost so they didn't have to know or worry about it. It worked pretty well for the most part.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#104

Post by efdee »

spongle wrote: post #56
300bps wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. I think it's funny how people put down a technology (ASP.NET) that was released in January of 2002 because it's not up to snuff with 2013 web development tools. I also made the switch to ASP.NET MVC and can't imagine ever going back to ASP.NET. The unbelievable clean HTML you get, full control over rendering and rapid development is just phenomenal. Most of the anti-Microsoft comments I see on HN are of…

Sorry signed up to say this - been lurking a while but this one infuriated me terribly. The only reason ASP.Net MVC looks good is because you were a WebForms user before. If you've come from other tech, it's still a stinking pile of crap. 1. The API is totally broken and consists of tonnes of barely testable wrappers (HttpResponseWrapper etc). 2. The attribute model is a pain in the arse. How do you test filters base…

I like to think of myself as a polyglot programmer and I can't help but disagree with your statement that ASP.NET MVC only looks good because Webforms is so horrible.

1. I am not sure why you have problems testing the wrapper classes. I can't say I've encountered issues unit testing my controllers or other MVC specific components.

2. You test the attributes themselves as you would test any other class. Eg you test that OnActionExecuting etc yield the correct results. On your controller, you just need to test for the presence of the attribute, since you already know that it works as advertised.

3. I cannot comment on your claim about the Layout system, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean with the 'having to hint the view engine'. You need to tell it which parts are inline code, and those parts should be C#. Razor has no interest in your JavaScript code.

4 and 5, again, can't comment on these since I haven't encountered them, even though I worked on a number of sites that had moments of extreme high load. In addition, I have found that the number of 'stuff that just breaks' is minor compared to what I've seen in other frameworks. Sometimes things go wrong, but it really is not as dire as you portray it.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#105

Post by efdee »

Touche wrote: post #70
spongle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry signed up to say this - been lurking a while but this one infuriated me terribly. The only reason ASP.Net MVC looks good is because you were a WebForms user before. If you've come from other tech, it's still a stinking pile of crap. 1. The API is totally broken and consists of tonnes of barely testable wrappers (HttpResponseWrapper etc). 2. The attribute model is a pain in the arse. How do you test filters base…

Ditto on Razor. It's like 2002 php. Except you can't really create reusable partials because of static typing. Sure, you can just make everything dynamic, but then the top of your view turns into: @{ /* A bunch of repetitive object creation and casting */ } Which has happened in every razor project I've seen anyways.

Object creation and casting in side your views? Maybe you are just putting too much logic in your view. Use interfaces as your model for partial views and reuse becomes a no brainier.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#106

Post by Zak »

untog wrote: post #47
ehmuidifici wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago, I participated on a interview for a job (in a startup) which requires some skills in ASP.NET. When I started talking to company owner and I said to him that I knew PHP (and ASP.NET too, of course), he started to say that ASP.NET is better because it's paid, expensive and it has a great support from Microsoft... That's all he said about it. Later on, I discovered that almost 7/10 of big companies' IT…

They're not wrong, though. It's all about priorities. With an MS product you do get good support, and someone to shout at if something is not behaving as expected. With open source tech you can submit a patch to fix it yourself.

I've always been a little skeptical of the value of commercial support with proprietary development tools relative to community support with established, popular open source development tools. Is the average time between discovering a problem and identifying a good solution shorter? It would be hard to design a good study for this, but every programmer I've talked to with professional experience in both types of environment has told me that paid support was not an advantage for them.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#107

Post by edwinnathaniel »

rjbwork wrote: post #90
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should update your Java skill? Servlet/JSP vs MVC4? Try SpringMVC and JAX-RS. I've ben going back and forth between Java and C# in the not-so-distant past and I felt that C# ecosystem is just too limited.

I mentioned Spring. It's been a couple of years, but doesn't Spring's MVC pattern use JSP for the view templates?

JSP is just a tiny part of the whole stack no? You're free to develop single-page app using whatever your choice of JS frameworks.

I believe any Spring view plumbering can process several java-based templating languages (Velocity, JSP, JSF, etc).

You did mentioned Spring but in the same breadth with Servlet+JSP which makes me wonder if you're just using Spring-core and not the more modern stuff.

Keep in mind that there's now "flow" based solution in .NET world. "Flow", while it is not the best choice for the whole presentation stack, has it values for developing wizard-like/shopping cart section of your app.

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