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Programmer's Dilemma

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Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#101

Post by zhemao »

ambrop7 wrote: post #83
zhemao wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it takes more than an hour to make something production-ready. Setting up test cases and tracing down memory errors and leaks is going to take a while, even (and I would think especially) for an experienced C programmer.

What memory errors and leaks? A good coder should be able to produce error-free code on first try, provided the documentation is clear and correct, and the problem is sufficiently simple (as in this case). Tests and debugging will only get you so far, theoretical methods can get you farther in terms of correctness (provided your compiler isn't broke etc). Quoting Linus Torvalds: "Don't just make random changes. There…

Okay, maybe I should rephrase it. It takes more than an hour to carefully think and analyze, and then implement the thing, and then make sure there aren't any bugs. Thinking things through beforehand makes the possibility of errors less likely, but even then you may have made a silly mistake at some point or another. That is why we have things like unit tests and code reviews, because even the best programmers make mistakes. I certainly wouldn't trust C code written by a single developer in one hour to be production-ready.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#102

Post by zhemao »

wyclif wrote: post #61
zhemao wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to Google his name, even. He says he's in Beijing at the end of the first section. Presumably wyclif was so turned off by the spelling mistake in the title, he decided not to read any of the article itself.

I read the article, and I knew it was Chinese in origin.

Haha, sorry, I was just having a joke.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#103

Post by vonmoltke »

Fomite wrote: post #98
vonmoltke wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CEUs required for licensure are not nearly the same as what the OP or GP are talking about. For Texas: - Medical professionals require 48 hours of continuing education per two years, of which 24 may be informal self study or hospital lectures - Legal professionals require 15 hours of continuing education per year - Professional engineers require 17 hours of continuing education per year CEUs are obtained either throu…

Almost every doctor or lawyer I know would likely gladly trade CE for "programmer-style" self study - and CEUs can keep your skills sharp if you do them right.

They can, and are supposed to, but they have morphed into a box-checking exercise used to keep politicians and professional guilds happy and management asses covered. Hence the reason most of these professionals see the requirement as a burden. I felt the same way back when I was actually working as an electrical engineer.

That said, self-study is a different animal from the side project nonsense that the thread root is referring to. I personally engage in a significant amount of self-study. Some of it a roll back into my day job, some I experiment with in my free time, the rest is purely academic knowledge acquisition. I don't have anything tangible to show off, though, because most everything I have done off hours is the software equivalent of a carver or welder practicing with scraps.

Maybe that isn't the right attitude for a programmer, but in that case a programmer is a different animal than any of the professions listed previously.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#105

Post by meapix »

tocomment wrote: post #86
Fomite wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you see any other professions having to do that in order to stay employable? Can you imagine lawyers having to practice law in their free time to "keep their skills sharp"?" This is a profoundly ignorant question to ask: - Lawyers do essentially have to practice law in their free time. Many, many state bars require continuing legal education in order to remain barred. Can you imagine having to pay money for class…

I think plumbers would be a better example than lawyers. Do you expect them to unclog toilets in their free time?

toilets in europe are not the same as in north america. a north american plumber will say screw europe, I will never work there. What if you need to move to europe?

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#106

Post by gchpaco »

zhemao wrote: post #9

Although the article as a whole makes very good suggestions about keeping your skills fresh, I think his standards for the candidates he interviewed are impossibly high. Expecting an understanding of what the kernel does when malloc is called is probably fair (actually I think this is a trick question, as I believe the kernel doesn't actually page in any memory until it is accessed for the first time). But I don't th…

When I thought about that malloc question, I starting asking myself "so I knew the old way was eventually libc calls sbrk and the kernel adds some more pages to the page table. But I can't remember if that's still considered the right thing to do; I've heard of people using mmap for malloc for some reason I can't remember." But that's probably sufficient for his purposes.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#107

Post by pacala »

zhemao wrote: post #101
ambrop7 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What memory errors and leaks? A good coder should be able to produce error-free code on first try, provided the documentation is clear and correct, and the problem is sufficiently simple (as in this case). Tests and debugging will only get you so far, theoretical methods can get you farther in terms of correctness (provided your compiler isn't broke etc). Quoting Linus Torvalds: "Don't just make random changes. There…

Okay, maybe I should rephrase it. It takes more than an hour to carefully think and analyze, and then implement the thing, and then make sure there aren't any bugs. Thinking things through beforehand makes the possibility of errors less likely, but even then you may have made a silly mistake at some point or another. That is why we have things like unit tests and code reviews, because even the best programmers make m…

I can rephrase as well. I'm not going to rush your interview code to production, but the review cycle needs to start with a first version. We'll refine as needed, but this is a simple enough problem to expect well-structured code in one hour.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#108

Post by zhemao »

pacala wrote: post #107
zhemao wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, maybe I should rephrase it. It takes more than an hour to carefully think and analyze, and then implement the thing, and then make sure there aren't any bugs. Thinking things through beforehand makes the possibility of errors less likely, but even then you may have made a silly mistake at some point or another. That is why we have things like unit tests and code reviews, because even the best programmers make m…

I can rephrase as well. I'm not going to rush your interview code to production, but the review cycle needs to start with a first version. We'll refine as needed, but this is a simple enough problem to expect well-structured code in one hour.

Fair enough.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#109

Post by VexXtreme »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #65
VexXtreme wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many professions enjoy employer paid continuing education. A totally different ballgame. Staying up every night committing to Github in hopes of landing a job is a terrible terrible thing. I know because I used to do it when I was young and stupid. The only reason why I was able to land my first dev job fresh out of college is because I had an open source project that I built in my own free time. If it hadn't been fo…

>Many professions enjoy employer paid continuing education. Lawyers who work for a firm? Maybe. If they work for themselves, they're stuck paying the bills; continuing education is required in many fields, and yet it's not always reimbursed. >Staying up every night committing to Github in hopes of landing a job is a terrible terrible thing. That's never the "right" thing to do. The right thing to do is to commit to G…

> Or Android app programming, even; most Java developers would still take months to get up to speed on Android, if they ever managed adapt to the Android way of thinking at all.

So you doubt they would be able to adapt to an environment that uses the exact same language they've been using for 10 years, simply because they don't know the API? Do you think that someone who is smart enough to do Java development for 10 years isn't smart enough to pick up a new Java-based environment in days/weeks?

Your attitude reeks or arrogance, elitism and lack of empathy. I'd never want to work with people like you in any capacity.

Re: Programmer's Dilemma

#110

Post by tocomment »

meapix wrote: post #105
tocomment wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think plumbers would be a better example than lawyers. Do you expect them to unclog toilets in their free time?

toilets in europe are not the same as in north america. a north american plumber will say screw europe, I will never work there. What if you need to move to europe?

Exactly
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