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The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

theatlantic.com

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Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#101

Post by diminoten »

jacquesm wrote: post #84
diminoten wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd argue that a child porn viewer isn't doing anything wrong? Your opinion officially doesn't matter any more. Sorry, I have a 10 yr old sister and I simply can't abide folks who won't even do the research to understand what it means when they say things.

I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old and I can't abide by folks who are so bad at statistics that they'd happily ruin the world for fear of some statistical implausibility to become true in their lives. I understand that you're taking this position with the best of intentions but 'child porn is bad' does not equate with 'a surveilance state is good because it gets rid of child porn or its viewers'. Fear is such a bad…

And I can't abide by folks who take pictures of children for the sake of their own sexual gratification. But at no time did I say a surveillance state was okay for this reason. Don't put words in my mouth.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#102

Post by shmerl »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #10

I have to wonder what it's like for Zuckerberg, or Brin, or any of the other big internet moguls today. Here they are creating internet experiences made as addictive as possible, meanwhile gathering every damned little piece of miniscule information possible about each of their users: where they are, who their friends are, what they like, what they hate, their favorite colors, their favorite brands, and so on. Hell,…

They are losing users now. People are more interested in privacy issues than before, and Google and FB were always weak on privacy by design. There isn't much they can do. It's their inherent deficiency.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#103

Post by diminoten »

marssaxman wrote: post #64
diminoten wrote: post #3

Commandeering implies control, and the NSA does not have control. No one has "control" over the Internet. I also don't like this, "us vs. them" rhetoric that this story has turned some people towards, where the NSA are the unequivocal bad guys and we, the "little people", are the unequivocal good guys. That's a great way to get absolutely nothing done. The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (B…

> The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (Bruce), on our side. Like hell it is. The NSA is part of the US Government, which is on its own side, and is only on "our side" to the degree that it depends on us for tax revenue and political legitimacy.

The US government is on the same side as the US citizenry. I realize how unpopular that statement is on this website, but it's demonstrably true in hundreds of thousands, millions, of examples.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#104

Post by adaml_623 »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #75
ge0rg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they could shut down all of these niche secure email businesses, what option will people have but to use less private alternatives? I think Ladar Levison answered that question, implicitly, in his shutdown announcement: "I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States." It is high time to provide secure services hosted in countries withou…

Great if you live outside the US, but if you're inside the US, would not the very act of connecting to a foreign secure service automatically make you suspect? There is a much deeper issue here: as Americans, we need to decide how much protection we actually want. One group says everyone is responsible for their own protection, another says everyone needs protecting from everyone else, yet another group says we'll pr…

Do you mind if the UK, Russian, or Chinese security agencies spy on you? After all that's their job? And by spy I do mean trojan your personal machine and keep you in a database?

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#105

Post by diminoten »

dreamfactory wrote: post #96
diminoten wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The potential of abuse for guns is pretty damn large, but some would argue that the US was founded on the idea of gun ownership. There's a lot of speculation about what could happen, but if we look only at what has happened, people aren't being snatched up off the streets because of the NSA's monitoring programs. The language of the above article seems too adversarial to be effective at getting anything done. If we c…

I imagine many would say recent events demonstrate that it shouldn't continue in its current incarnation as it's doing more harm than good to national interests. Like the TSA, it doesn't need to exist, certainly not in its current form. In the UK for example, the equivalent hasn't always existed, (and going by Adam Curtis recently, may as well not have). That didn't prevent them from building an empire and dominating…

I'd like to see what you've read that makes you think the majority of US citizens think the NSA shouldn't continue in its current incarnation.

Furthermore, I'd like to see what you've read that shows the TSA doesn't need to exist.

Also, what makes you think the UK hasn't had a global intelligence network since its inception?

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#106

Post by TallGuyShort »

diminoten wrote: post #55
TallGuyShort wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We can have our cake (terrorist monitoring) and eat it too (maintain individual privacy) Until the definition of a "terrorist" grows to include people who engage in activities previously considered harmless and private.

So we're ready to convict the government of thought-crimes? Just because they can, doesn't mean they will. Gun owners could all go out and harm innocent people, but they generally don't, do they? At least we don't convict them before they do.

Whoa, slow down there - where do I mention convicting the government of thought-crimes? My point is that granting the federal government powers (because, under the constitution, they have no power that isn't explicitly granted to them) under the umbrella of counter-terrorism initiatives is inevitably going to expand in scope and usage, and will still be labelled as "counter-terrorism".

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#107

Post by ceol »

pessimizer wrote: post #66
ceol wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really appreciate your reasonable argument, but if the past few weeks have been any indication, there isn't any room for that here. HN has gone from interesting tech discussions to extremist, us-vs-them political rhetoric, and anyone who takes a different stance is jumped on and downvoted — as you can tell from your post having more replies than the entire rest of the thread. Of course, you won't see the story abou…

I am black and not rich, and I think that NSA/Lavabit stories are more relevant to HN than stop-and-frisk stories, because they are about techies and technology. Call me crazy.

HN has always had stories not directly related to tech and startups. NYC is a thriving city for entrepreneurs; it hosts 10gen (MongoDB developers), Tumblr, Etsy, AppNexus, Gilt, Makerbot, Kickstarter, and FourSquare. A major news story centering around government abuse for that city should be on the front page along with the random science articles and "look what I made in a weekend! (but really it took me two years)" posts, especially when the abuse is far more outrageous than the NSA scanning international mail.

I'm just pointing out how polarized and hypocritical this community has become. You just have to mention the NSA[0] (and bring absolutely no new information to the discussion) and it hits the top 5, but post about how an abusive program was ruled unconstitutional? Don't care.[1]

Realize that if this keeps up, HN will go from "industry and startup news" to "/r/politics-lite" as it drives away the people who are here to talk tech and tire of the NSA/Snowden rehashing.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6197546

[1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6200193

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#108

Post by diminoten »

foobarqux wrote: post #95
diminoten wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so you're not in a dictatorship, and the NSA isn't "out to get" you. If you're a US citizen, then the NSA is trying, at least, to prevent you from being harmed by foreign threats by gathering data on those threats and alerting other US government agencies. That's what they do. As long as the US exists, someone will have to do this. If you're not a US citizen, then the NSA will take a look at you. Period. That's…

As you should know surveillance is used for far more broadly than for preventing terrorism. It is beyond comprehension that you can ignore documented abuses, even ones that have recently been reported. You cannot justify arbitrary powers simply by pointing to the fact that (US and ally) citizens may be safer from terrorism. Otherwise you should be advocating for more invasive surveillance. > Being investigated does n…

Well yes, you can never have the goal of harming US citizens. Otherwise, your autonomy is not lost, just because someone is watching you. That's malarky.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#109

Post by diminoten »

dictum wrote: post #93
diminoten wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so you're not in a dictatorship, and the NSA isn't "out to get" you. If you're a US citizen, then the NSA is trying, at least, to prevent you from being harmed by foreign threats by gathering data on those threats and alerting other US government agencies. That's what they do. As long as the US exists, someone will have to do this. If you're not a US citizen, then the NSA will take a look at you. Period. That's…

As far as I'm aware, the country of which I am a citizen does not take an adversarial approach to other countries. If I learned that it's spying on people of other countries, I'd be just as concerned as I am about the NSA/the USG. None of that changes the fact that the NSA and the USG have a us vs. them mentality and it's only natural that Americans look at their government with a corresponding us vs. them view. I ca…

The US has organizations which look inward for terrorists - the FBI, DEA, ATF, TSA, local law enforcement, etc. We have our own country fairly well covered, with well-establish legal precedent and rules of engagement. The NSA is an intelligence gathering organization for the parts of the world we don't have covered, and its goal is to collect global intelligence. It doesn't treat anyone adversarially, as it has no "troops" with which to engage foreigners.

It's massively near-sighted to think there are no groups in the world plotting the harm of US citizens. You might not be part of those groups, but how do we know if we don't look at you?

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#110

Post by diminoten »

tekromancr wrote: post #99
diminoten wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but arguing that the NSA program has never lead to anyone being 'snatched up off the streets', is WILDLY disconnected from reality. Do you have evidence that indicates US citizens are being 'snatched' from the streets of the US without being arrested, tried, or convicted as per the US criminal justice system? You say it's wildly disconnected from reality and that the NSA's entire purpose is to do precisely this, an…

There is evidence of US citizens being blown off the streets by drones.

Do I just take your word for that?
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