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Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

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Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#101

Post by jlgreco »

gojomo wrote: post #92
jlgreco wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the hypothesis that these recruiters are continuing to publicly defend and sell the NSA so that behind closed doors they can spend their time trying to rein the NSA back in? I don't buy it, and even if it were true I would not accept that is a proper tradeoff.

They are still trying to recruit a diverse, capable group of patriotic employees, so that the workforce has the full range of skills and opinions for it to do its proper mission, and identify and correct any abuses. If the armchair-ethicist standard is: "if you have any qualms, you'll quit" – then the type of people doing recruiting, and being recruited, and staying in the agency, all become even more self-selected f…

If we want to keep the "bad people" diluted in these organizations, then should all of us be looking for the next Enron so that we can do some community service by hopping on that ship?

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#102

Post by phaus »

electic wrote: post #63
Kylekramer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. There was a news report about how 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck last week. I'd argue saying "they could leave" assumes a lot.

You do not have to sell your soul to feed your family. Trust me, they can get another job. The reality is the pay is good and these people do not care what their organization does.

If you work in a high-technology field, as federal employee, you are often underpaid in comparison to the private sector. I'm a contractor and I make 1/3 less than I did when I was still in the military.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#103

Post by jlgreco »

nitrogen wrote: post #91
jlgreco wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why not; everybody is hiring straight from colleges these days. Who couldn't use another good recruiter? I don't believe for one instant that these are people just desperately trying to feed their starving family. They have options, they choose to stay on.

How many options are there for someone whose primary skill is conversational fluency in and syntactic mastery of Arabic, Russian, and English? We don't see many articles about a commercial shortage of translators.

I haven't looked into it, but perhaps the students in this audio clip can help you out there. They don't seem to concerned about burning this particular bridge.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#104

Post by Sven7 »

jlgreco wrote: post #86
Sven7 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students can ask all the questions they want (of Facebook and Goldman Sachs too). At the end of the day the only question that matters is who is going to pay off those little student loans.

> "little student loans." You are correct on the "little" front. While it may seem astronomical to people in countries with different educational systems and people without career prospects, the median and mean student loan debt is under $30k. So long as they are in a field with more than one major employer, then the NSA is hardly has significant power over them.

And what is the mean and median savings rate?

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#105

Post by mikeash »

embolism wrote: post #88
mikeash wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need to demonstrate that the intelligence is actively being misused. The simple fact that collecting it is unconstitutional and abusive is enough.

It's certainly enough to warrant an open political inquiry and changes of policy, as well as resignations from those politically responsible. It's not at all obvious that all the NSA staff should just walk away from their jobs. If the NSA is actually protecting people, that would be just as irresponsible.

I think it's safe to say that they are not protecting people to any major degree. When pressed, the only justification they can come up with is "terrorism", which is a completely insignificant threat.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#106

Post by krapp »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #98
embolism wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murdered by the NSA? Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US?

No, murdered by sending out drones in random directions without any targeting info. These things and their programming just pop out of thin air, after all. And then they track just by scent, for weeks even. Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US? For someone in the third world who may have little to lose and becomes witness to such senseless slaughter? Maybe. But then again I'm not quite sure what you're eve…

No, murdered by sending out drones in random directions without any targeting info. These things and their programming just pop out of thin air, after all. And then they track just by scent, for weeks even.

I'm pretty sure that's not how drones work. They're not autonomous, self-aware predators that can smell a Muslim from a mile away, and make their own decisions about when and how and who to kill. I'm pretty sure there's always a pilot with a joystick watching a camera and pulling a trigger.

Not that that makes it any better, but unless you can provide some proof what you're describing seems like science fiction.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#107

Post by embolism »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #98
embolism wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murdered by the NSA? Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US?

No, murdered by sending out drones in random directions without any targeting info. These things and their programming just pop out of thin air, after all. And then they track just by scent, for weeks even. Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US? For someone in the third world who may have little to lose and becomes witness to such senseless slaughter? Maybe. But then again I'm not quite sure what you're eve…

I'm pointing out that espionage is a part of real world statecraft and that it's naïve to just rail against the NSA for doing it.

I do believe that there should be consequences for a lot of these actions. I'd just rather people were discussing what we actually know and how things could realistically be improved (by individuals, corporations, and'the government) than just jeering like an angry mob.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#108

Post by dlss »

Can we organize a list of time + locations for NSA recruiting sessions, maybe with GPS based email alerts?

1. I think that if this kind of questioning become the norm, we'd have a significant impact on their ability to recruit.

2. Maybe some startup founders in the area could go poach the talent :p

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#109

Post by chatmasta »

c0ur7n3y wrote: post #6

I have to imagine their recruiting is going to suffer greatly due to the recent revelations. Very few smart people are going to want to join an organization that spies on their fellow citizens. Plus, the NSA is going to have to be even more skeptical of anyone they do recruit.

Yep. Probably even more than they realize. What percent of top CS talent do you think reads HN?

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#110

Post by jlgreco »

Sven7 wrote: post #104
jlgreco wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "little student loans." You are correct on the "little" front. While it may seem astronomical to people in countries with different educational systems and people without career prospects, the median and mean student loan debt is under $30k. So long as they are in a field with more than one major employer, then the NSA is hardly has significant power over them.

And what is the mean and median savings rate?

Good enough that if these students seek employment and take their loans seriously, they are in no dire danger.

Student loan discussion is dominated by the few fools who wrack up massively debt then think that they can make the minimum required payment for 10 years and have everything turn out okay. The mean debt is also slewed upwards by people who acquire very large amounts of debt that is not an unusual amount for their field (doctors, particularly).

Those who don't actually graduate are another obvious cause of the perception that student loan debt is crippling (and for them it certainly is), but of course they are not being considered in this discussion unless the NSA is making a habit of hiring college dropouts.

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