Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#101

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 3:49 PM UTC

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #94

rorymarinich wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's not my place to say this, since this is an attack on me, but it's sad that something like this got 4 points on Hacker News. It adds nothing to the conversation and is roundly negative. Now that you've insulted me and called me both angry and sad, I'd like you to explain yourself further so I can respond in kind.

I cannot vouch for the "angry little man" comment, but you've run aground with massive sweeping generalizations that do not hold very true with many geeks. We all wern't made fun of in high school. Some of us even had plenty of jock friends and stayed away from the "introvert hate everybody clueless programmers group". And there's one really cool thing about being a "nerd": You learn a lot about a multitude of subjec…

That's largely what I was trying to say. I use "nerd" in a very narrow sense: most nerdy people I don't consider to be nerds. I don't think I'm a nerd, for instance.

The toughest group to join was that nerd group, at least in my HS. I assume it was a mixture of not trusting or they thought I was too stupid.

That's what I was trying to say. If "popular" really meant "exclusive", then nerds would be the most popular people around.

As I said in my essay: everybody nowadays is a nerd. Doesn't matter what you get involved in, you're a nerd. I suspect that was true 50 years ago, because Lennon/McCartney were as nerdy brilliant as they come and they still became sex icons. So when I refer to nerds I refer not to people who do nerdy things, but to the nerds that aggressively classify themselves as nerds and invite persecution and antagonizing by doing do.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#102

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 3:49 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #97

chairface wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe it wasn't completely the jock's (or whomever's) fault that the nerds were unpopular. I can agree with this to a point - by the time high school rolls around, yeah, the unpopular kids probably have adopted a set of behaviors that contributes to them being unpopular. However, those behaviors are probably defenses developed against some early damaging experiences. And who is responsible for those experiences? In…

For fairness' sake you should also focus on what the unpopular do to other people: how they bring down a conversation, unwittingly sabotage their friends' efforts at looking sane and approachable, pick the wrong moments for racy jokes, and hijack conversations towards topics they find interesting but nobody else does. In hindsight, I can see that I wasn't always a pleasant person to be around. High school kids don't…

The entire article and most of rory's comments in this thread are about what the unpopular do to other people. I'm balancing that.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#103

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 3:51 PM UTC

chairface wrote: post #98

rorymarinich wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy, because people don't care if you're socially awkward. I personally love shy people. Lots of people do. So I know the fear exists, but it's a false fear. The risk is nonexistent because social failure doesn't mean what nerds think it does. Can you not see that the captain of the football team is way less likely to be harassed than the math dweeb? I'm saying that if math was cool and football wa…

You've got a lot of living to do if you believe all that, pal. Particularly that last sentence.

I've been invited to meet people I respect deeply because they liked some of the stuff I did. One of my close friends opened for Kimya Dawson; another friend of mine won a national poetry award. I find that the people I know who have succeeded are the people who don't doubt for an instant that people want them to succeed, and I have seen no reason to doubt that. The sorts of people who are bitter enough to push down lower people are the sorts of people who themselves are not really high up.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#104

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 3:53 PM UTC

chairface wrote: post #79

rorymarinich wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My implication is that the tormented as not wholly innocent. Of course I don't agree with bullying. I'm not a huge fan of violence, particularly not for stupid shit like school. But there's an attitude amongst this type of person that says they are entirely not to blame for the harassment they get, just because they act smart or whatnot. I don't think that's the case. I used to get mocked a lot in school and looking…

> But there's an attitude amongst this type of person that says they are entirely not to blame for the harassment they get They _are_ entirely not to blame for what they get. What they _are_ to blame for is their own behavior. I don't have a problem with you saying that some people are irritating and do annoying things. What I have a problem with is the suggestion that they _share in the blame for what others do to t…

If I act like an asshole, then when people get mad at me for being an asshole I'm to blame. If I reject people for not being smarter than I am, then if they get mad at me I'm to blame.

I agree. You are responsible for yourself but nobody else. You seem to imply, however, that others' actions dwell in a void entirely uninspired by your own actions. I hold, on the other hand, that everything influences everything else, and so nerds should be responsible for their social hostility because that's what's influencing their persecution.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#105

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 3:58 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #95

rorymarinich wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Rails community understands that they are not a community for any other reason other than Rails. Do I approve of nudity in a presentation? No. But at the same time, even if I found it offensive, I wouldn't turn it into a huge argument and the focal point of a rant against a community. I'm really, really in the minority with this statement, but I find it very easy to deal with intolerant people. I have fri…

That was actually a pretty good response. :) I would say, though, while you are deliberately choosing not to ostracize the Rails community, they are deliberately ostracizing people who don't like porn, or at least people who don't like porn at their tech conferences. Is this any better than a nerd insulting a cheerleader for asking an unsophisticated programming question? Implicitly, they are saying if you aren't coo…

I think that the porn thing was pretty tasteless on the part of the presenter. But a part of being civil is avoiding confrontations that you don't have to be in. I used to feel really uncomfortable attending religious services because I was an atheist, for instance, but I've come to the conclusion that while it's awful to lie about what you believe, it's pretty icky to force your beliefs on other people. So while I think that the presenter and DHH are being kind of obnoxious, I accept that DHH's good traits stem from that obnoxious attitude, and I can like his product without necessarily liking that attitude.

It also depends on what you mean by "insulting." Frankly, if a cute girl asks me to program, then I will almost certainly tease her as I help out. I think the porn thing was an attempt at tease that ended up being a bit too insulting. There's definitely a line, but usually if you cross that line people will understand so long as you do.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#106

Post by derefr » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:01 PM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #64

derefr wrote: post #18

> Cheerleader come over and ask about programming? Shot down. Invitation to a study group? Rejected. The most bitingly ironic comes when a person in a group of nerds gets an invitation to a party. If you’re one of the more social people in your scene, try it. Invite an anime person or a programmer - one of those people - out to an event. Chances are you’ll be declined. There’s every possibility you’ll be rejected imp…

Indeed. I'd also done things that might appear like this on occasion, even though I trusted that the person asking wasn't playing some sort of practical joke or simply trying to get me to do their work for them. The reason is that the questions were often things like "How do I make a web page on geocities?" or "How do I program DOS?" In the former case, after establishing that they didn't want me to actually sit down…

Just because the person didn't know enough about the domain to use the correct terminology is no reason to belittle them by thinking they "want to do something stupid," though (and yes, that's why they're angry); half of software engineering is figuring out what the heck people mean with their requirements, and the usual best first assumption, no matter who your client/student is, is that they want to do something cool :)

I like to give anyone who asks me to teach them "to make games" or anything similar this test first, though: I take a pen and put it down on a page of paper, and tell them to tell me to draw a happy face on it, without expecting me to know what a happy face, or even a circle, is. I take everything they say literally, and tell them "this is how the computer would react to that." Clears up any misconceptions pretty quickly. :)

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#107

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:01 PM UTC

Psyonic wrote: post #72

tlrobinson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bit is particularly appropriate: Hell, programmers argue over web browsers. There is an elitist and closed-off system among hardcore coders that says certain things are better than others, usually for no reason, often for bad reasons.

Right.... as opposed to the rest of the population arguing over which (baseball team, basketball team, hockey team, football team, soccer team, nascar driver, music group, shoe label, clothing label) is better, which while I guess isn't "elitist and closed-off" definitely says certain things are better than others, usually for no reason, and often for bad reasons. Or in other words, so-called nerds have different int…

One of the most-disliked kids at my school was the football captain, a Republican football player who wouldn't stop talking about politics or sports. I was in a class with him and with a completely insane dweeby kid who tried to add a word of Japanese into every sentence he spoke, and that second kid was completely ignored. We all made fun of the captain, because despite being football captain, he was just an absolute boring jerk. Similar targets in classes included pretty much all the sorts of people you just named. Even in really pretentious groups, like groups of actors, the one who nitpicked clothing was the one nobody else liked.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#108

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:07 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #90

chairface wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel that people who are persecuted for arrogance should at least admit that their own attitude is partly at fault Again with this theory. Should battered wives admit that they are partially at fault because they annoyed their husbands? Should rape victims admit that they are partially at fault because they led a guy on? People are responsible for _their own actions_. No more, no less. If this means that the peop…

I think it's funny that you think you can solve this problem, and that we can all live in egalitarian bliss. You know that you're the reason I wrote this article, right? This is exactly the HN attitude that made me freeze my main account away. People who take things that other people say and extend them to drastic proportions just so they can be dicks about it. No , we're not going to have egalitarian bliss. We're hu…

> You know that you're the reason I wrote this article, right? This is exactly the attitude that made me freeze my main account away. People who take things that other people say and extend them to drastic proportions just so they can be dicks about it.

Look man, you said you had a solution to the problem. What I said is hardly a leap. You have a funny definition of "drastic proportions".

> But no, you won't address the ideas I put forth. You'll nitpick. You'll be an absolute snot just so that you can gain the upper hand in an argument. And so you might reach a point where I and people like me get tired of your bullshit and walk away, and then you'll declare yourself the victor because you were the last person to make a post in my comment thread, but all you're doing is making the person on the other side want to punch yourself in the face...

You're descending into ad hominem territory here. Please don't.

I didn't address your solution because I don't think there is one, and I don't see value in arguing about it. Perhaps I misunderstand the problem you're trying to solve.

> They're interconnected.

I never said they weren't - I limited my discussion to the assigning of blame, which I took to be your primary subject as well. But now, it seems to me that you are not separating the issues of "cause" and "blame" the same way I am.

To be clear, of course the victims are part of the cause of any particular confrontation. It couldn't happen if they weren't there, so there's at least that. What I object to is assigning _blame_ to them. Causes for these things are shared - blame is given to one side or the other for their own actions.

Your commentaries on battered wives and rape focus on what happens _after_ the incident. I am asking about the incident itself. The blame for the raping and the beating lies solely with the aggressors.

> Is McDonald's to blame for making people fat? Partly.

No. McDonald's is to blame for making fatty food. There's a difference.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#109

Post by hunterjrj » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:09 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #62

yef wrote: post #44

I'm frustrated that the #2 link on Hacker News right now is a rambling rehash of How To Win Friends and Influence People, the first book listed here: http://ycombinator.com/lib.html

Is that what HTWFAIP is about? I've never read it. (Also: is it a good read, or is it overrated?) (Also also: I agree. This should not be here.)

I'd say it is a necessary read for anyone who is interested in advancing their career either within an organization or independently. The advice offered in the book isn't difficult to implement, it is essentially common sense and manners. I've read the book about a half dozen times and with each read I gain a little more insight into how to conduct myself professionally.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#110

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 4:11 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #103

chairface wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got a lot of living to do if you believe all that, pal. Particularly that last sentence.

I've been invited to meet people I respect deeply because they liked some of the stuff I did. One of my close friends opened for Kimya Dawson; another friend of mine won a national poetry award. I find that the people I know who have succeeded are the people who don't doubt for an instant that people want them to succeed, and I have seen no reason to doubt that. The sorts of people who are bitter enough to push down…

> I find that the people I know who have succeeded are the people who don't doubt for an instant that people want them to succeed

This is not the same as "Everyone who attempts to climb the social ladder succeeds", what you are saying here is more like "Everyone who succeeds at climbing the social ladder attempts it". The latter is true, the former is what I objected to. You are ignoring the people who attempted and failed.