Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree • Hacker News Board

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#101

Post by zaphar » Sun, May 26, 2013, 4:41 AM UTC

vinkelhake wrote: post #47

About one and a half year ago, a long time IRC buddy from the states suggested that I'd apply to Google. I was a 30-something programmer with a wife and kid who had spent the last 12 years working on trading systems in Europe. I decided to go ahead. Both because I wanted to see what the interview process was actually like and if I could pull it off. Going to work for Google seemed very distant at the time. After tele…

Google happens to be one of the companies where getting in without a degree is possible. It also happens to be one of the places where your advancement has pretty much nothing to do with your degree.

All that said a degree will make it easier to get to the interview stage at Google so even though I work there and don't have a degree myself I recognize that having a degree does give you an edge over someone else.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#102

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sun, May 26, 2013, 4:58 AM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #71

lsc wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everyone is going to drop out of high school or college and launch a billion dollar company. Neither did this guy. Most of us without degrees did something similar to what this guy did; do a high dollar job for a while for a low-dollar wage, and eventually you build up enough reputation that you can get paid market rate. >As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds o…

Going to school later on isn't a bad idea or impossible. It could be a good idea for some. I would guess for most it is difficult, if not impossible. Throw a couple of kids and a mortgage into the equation and it's really tough to make independent (and risky) decisions. At some level I am suggesting this has nothing to do with earning more money but rather being able to get a job and not loose it to someone with a de…

I think you're confused. Later in life, it becomes less relevant. If someone is gainfully employed and earning a living that they are satisfied with, I think the only "moron" is the one calling them a moron for not getting a degree. The whole mentality of "one size fits all" for paths through life is pretty narrow minded.

That aside, your post is missing the point. Nobody is advocating for not getting a degree or saying that they are a waste.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#103

Post by sliverstorm » Sun, May 26, 2013, 5:08 AM UTC

aortega wrote: post #68

ultimoo wrote: post #8

I believe I am a good engineer, I have heard generally positive things about my professional work, have a college degree, etc. I am however terrified of programming challenges (topcoder, spoj, interview-street, etc.) I have tried solving some problems there using Ruby (back when it was 1.8.x, too slow for these kind of problems) and given up. Maybe I should give it a shot with C. Any ideas how to start, considering t…

Those programming challenges are silly, completely unrelated to real-life programming. Staying awake for 24 hs, writing ultra-optimized snippets of code that barely compile with zero documentation. Training exactly the kind of programmer that is useless in any organization except for programming challenges.

Sure, but if it is what is required to get a job...

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#104

Post by sliverstorm » Sun, May 26, 2013, 5:15 AM UTC

mwfunk wrote: post #54

alberich wrote: post #29

I'm a bit curious, why do most programmers like to call themselves engineers even though programming is not engineering?

No, you're not curious, you're just passive-aggressively pointing out that you don't think programming is engineering, but phrasing it in such a way as to make it sound like this is some universal truth that everyone accepts. Anyway, the answer is because it is engineering. Not in the capital "E" sense of engineering where you have some sort of official certification from some governmental or professional body that s…

ABET's predecessor described engineering like this:

    The creative application of scientific principles...

Programming primarily applies logic and mathematics, which is why I have always considered programming/computer science to be more of an "applied mathematics" field, than engineering.

Christ, computer science and mathematics are the only two fields I know of that care about graph theory. To my understanding, graph theory is a post-graduate discipline in mathematics, and a computer scientist's bread-and-butter. What does that tell you?

Anyway, this all kind of hinges on whether mathematics is a science. Personally, it never seemed like a science to me- and I don't mean to denigrate mathematics. Rather, it seems completely apart.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#105

Post by lsc » Sun, May 26, 2013, 5:18 AM UTC

flatline wrote: post #97

lsc wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I left a $100k/yr job to do school, so that loss of income on top of paying for things like daycare and a mortgage made it a much more expensive proposition than when I was in my early 20s Why did you decide to go back to school if your income was already that high? did you change careers? or was this just a social status/personal enrichment project?

Mostly the latter, though I was tired of writing business applications and looking to move into something, broadly, in the domain of scientific research. Which is not terribly straightforward with only a B.S., but seems to be pretty much impossible without one. So for the moment, I'm still on the job hunt in this area.

I've worked with a bunch of folks going the other way; physics BAs who couldn't cut it as a researcher who fell back on programming.

From what I've seen, physics majors are more likely than CS majors to have a reasonable level of Linux competency.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#106

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sun, May 26, 2013, 5:18 AM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #88

anxx wrote: post #10

My Google interviewer was a HS-educated guy. My parents couldn't believe it. I tend to think - if he is as good at the job as me, what does his education matter? Why should I be offended that a HS-educated guy is in the same room with me? Education is meant to produce a difference in job performance; it's good for the worker, not directly to the employer. If I with my college degree can't get a better job than a HS-g…

You shouldn't necessarily care about this at a personal level, but this has some deep implications, which might be a reason for concern for your parents and/or the society: 1. The company doesn't value education. It only cares if somebody can do the hard work and maybe pick up what he/she needs to perform at the same level of other people who have degrees. 2. The university program you attended did not give you any s…

It doesn't have those implications at all. I'm not sure if you live under a rock, but Google values education very highly. The error in your logic is believing that a lack of a degree is a lack of an education. A degree is the obvious way to get an education, but not the only way.

In many professions this isn't feasible, but development? Everything is online. That doesn't mean universities don't provide value. If you were expecting that they would provide exclusive value, as if they have some kind of monopoly on knowledge, and no one could possibly learn the same material in a self-directed way, your expectations need some adjusting.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#107

Post by Techasura » Sun, May 26, 2013, 5:38 AM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #81

Techasura wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a college degree, i work for one of the new and successful startup today. Yes, i do regret about not having a degree sometimes[when i'm drunk]. But most of the times, my life is exactly what the OP has written. Life is fantastic for me today. i'm having 5 years of beautiful experience working on amazing things. Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anyth…

> Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I will tell you right now that having a degree will not guarantee you even get to try that one thing. Likewise, not having a degree does not free you to work on anything your heart desires. Earning a degree is one way to grow your streng…

I have seen many many people ... who are software engineers and they feel under estimated if they have to work as a designer. Many of my juniors express worda like, "I have my engineering and I m not happy working as a designer since I have done my software engineering". Most of the people who do engineering stick being an engineer and never try being something else. That was my point. where as me for instance, have worked on many areas tech support, designer, ,developer, customer service guy, computer repair guy, but work with UI since I like it the most. But what really matters is being open to exploring new things, but thats me. anyway.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#108

Post by munin » Sun, May 26, 2013, 5:45 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #100

munin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a Sam in one of these stories once. Now I'm back in school, finishing my degree. In my version, the next few weeks were not happy ones for Sam. You can ask yourself "how can it possibly matter" all day long but it doesn't matter. Just get the degree. You'll thank yourself later.

Funny you say that, Sam just had his second successful "exit" since then (the first he wasn't quite a founder, but this one he was). Even if he didn't get "lucky", he was doing fine at ~150k/year salaried at BigCorp. I think if you had trouble in this market, the problem was probably not your lack of a degree. Honestly, if I were you, I would have considered companies or managers discriminating over that (in the face…

our business unit came under new management after I had been there for four years and new management had different priorities. a lack of degree hadn't been a problem before, and it hasn't been a problem since. my lesson from that though was that some people are stuck up about degrees and you can't accurately predict when you will need to work with one of them, even if just for a little while.

there are a lot of employers in my geographic area (not west coast) that have a strong preference for degree credentialed individuals, I've been declined at the last minute after technical interviewers gave the thumbs-up because I didn't have a degree. it's pretty frustrating and ideally I'd like to never be in that position again...

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#109

Post by btilly » Sun, May 26, 2013, 6:26 AM UTC

mwfunk wrote: post #54

alberich wrote: post #29

I'm a bit curious, why do most programmers like to call themselves engineers even though programming is not engineering?

No, you're not curious, you're just passive-aggressively pointing out that you don't think programming is engineering, but phrasing it in such a way as to make it sound like this is some universal truth that everyone accepts. Anyway, the answer is because it is engineering. Not in the capital "E" sense of engineering where you have some sort of official certification from some governmental or professional body that s…

But there is an insanely huge difference.

When a credentialed engineer puts their signature to the statement that a particular design is sound, the engineer is liable. Not the company. The engineer. If that bridge collapses, the engineer can be sued. And if the company cannot find an engineer who is willing to sign, that bridge cannot be built.

This is very important. Before we instituted this system, the USA had an average of one bridge collapse per week. And it wasn't nearly as large a country as it is today.

As long as I do not have this kind of liability, and likewise lack the power to tell a company that they are not allowed to release a website with the defects that I can identify, I do not consider myself an engineer. I may be forced to accept that my job title says "engineer", but I am firmly of the opinion that I am not one, and anyone who thinks that I am is uninformed on what it means.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#110

Post by jabbernotty » Sun, May 26, 2013, 6:37 AM UTC

Techasura wrote: post #107

dkokelley wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I will tell you right now that having a degree will not guarantee you even get to try that one thing. Likewise, not having a degree does not free you to work on anything your heart desires. Earning a degree is one way to grow your streng…

I have seen many many people ... who are software engineers and they feel under estimated if they have to work as a designer. Many of my juniors express worda like, "I have my engineering and I m not happy working as a designer since I have done my software engineering". Most of the people who do engineering stick being an engineer and never try being something else. That was my point. where as me for instance, have…

If you have focused, for about ten years or more, on working as a Software Engineer...

you probably want to be a Software Engineer, and not a designer, personal assistant, or any other role.

You seem to view that as a restriction cast upon them by their degree(s). I say that they probably really like being a software engineer.