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Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

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Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#101
Most of these debates seem to start from the idea of a yes or no ballot to formalize a panopticon and I think that only makes it more likely that society will go there (I mean: please, somebody, think of the children).

IMHO, the idea that law enforcement should have either all or no access to online data is a false dichotomy.

Wiretapping capability is less relevant than ever IMHO, in a time with more privately-owned cameras and personal communication devices than ever; it is more likely than ever that criminals will leave physical evidence of physical crimes, and so there is less reason than ever to invade people's privacy or criminalize thoughts and suspicion/conspiracy/planning of physical crimes when the damage comes from the follow-through, not the imagination. Violent crime has been declining In Canada and the US for decades. This idea of urgency simply doesn't fit those facts.

The Internet is basically a bunch of random thoughts. In a sense, people are having public conversations, but in another people are simply thinking out loud; the more we hold to criminalizing thoughts, the more we create problems by that process and criminalize freedom of thought.

I'm for warrants, and against vigilante justice, but I also really think we need to dissect this idea that only law enforcement should have, or even already has, the tools to address all dangerous situations. IMHO, the less individuals rely on institutions the better, since it is well known that power corrupts. So far Canada and the US have had pretty good luck and the public has had some success holding institutions accountable for abuses of power, but I don't get the impression that influence is as strong as it needs to be, going forward (and I don't know how to fix it while continuing to empower institutions that quite predictably stray from their mandates rather than close shop). IMHO, Institutions pose an unnecessary risk as they continue to grow and claw for more power - in this case, pushing for more surveillance capabilities. I would rather be responsible for myself, without the help of institutions, wherever possible.

As we create new potentials, and empower people to help themselves, I think the role of institutions should decrease. Take the recent article on the French police offloading missing person searches on Facebook for example. ( http://www.itworld.com/networking/357720/french-police-end-m... ) As much as I don't like Facebook, I think that's the right tool for that job, and I would like to see more work to empower individuals in that sense. It's a wonderful thing to be not needed because you actually solved a problem. I, for one, would love to not need to rely on (and pay for) the police or government because I was safe and had a voice of my own.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#102
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The FBI was unable to perform their job properly. Then they ask the public for help. What, the bomber didn't leave behind any Facebook conversations to track? Boo hoo.

Exactly, the US has DHS, FBI, CIA and a dozen other agencies. Letting anything through should simply result in the leaders going to the electric chair.

>> Letting anything through should simply result in the leaders going to the electric chair.

My, you have high standards. I hope you've never released a bug. Every line of code is available for your inspection and behaves deterministically. Unlike, say, people, who are nearly uncountable, much less predictable, much less controllable.

To avoid letting anything through would require being omniscient and omnipotent.

Please at least try to give others the benefit of the doubt that you'd like them to give you.

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#104
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power may be a necessary evil, but it's still evil. It robs you of empathy, because putting yourself in the shoes of every person affected by your decisions is just too emotionally taxing. And lack of empathy is the root of all evil.

We are perhaps defining power differently, which is why we will disagree. I see 'power' as 'the ability to realize my will' and I think you're extending it to 'power over other people,' which does imply that, at some point, it will conflict with someone's legitimate (not saying who is to decide what is legitimate) pursuit of well-being. I think perhaps we also disagree on the definition of 'evil', but I'm not interes…

Well, yes, what you call "power", I'd call "freedom", and it isn't what comes to mind in the context of "power-hungry federal agents."

Re: Is the FBI dumb, evil, or just incompetent?

#105
post #98

I'm one of the hard-headed privacy freaks usually sharpening my pitchfork when there is an outrage against civil liberties. I'm that guy . I once had a job that involved investigations of criminal activity (not law enforcement or government related, just a company protecting its own users and employees). In this case, I had identified, with certainty, one individual that was engaging in significant fraud. He appeared…

Please tell which US citizens are in Guantanamo because they were "extremely unlucky". You make it sound as if the FBI is picking up Soccer Moms for no reason and mysteriously spiriting them away to Guantanamo.

No, I don't make it sound like that at all. Hence, "extremely unlucky." And I didn't say US citizens went to Guantanamo.

If you aren't aware that there were many documented false positives who were sent to Guantanamo or other CIA detention facilities, you aren't paying attention, because there were some very high profile cases. Here is one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

Khalid El-Masri is a German citizen who was mistakenly abducted by the Macedonian Police, and handed-over to the U.S. CIA, whose officers interrogated, sodomized and tortured him. While in CIA hands, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held in a black site, interrogated, beaten, strip-searched and subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, tantamount to torture. After El-Masri held hunger strikes, and was detained for four months in the "Salt Pit", the CIA finally admitted his arrest and torture were a mistake and released him.

In April 2004, CIA Director George Tenet was told by his staff that El-Masri was being wrongfully detained. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice learned of the German citizen's detention in early May and ordered his release. Shortly before el-Masri was released, in May 2004 the US ambassador to Germany informed the government for the first time of his detention.

* According to a December 4, 2005, article in the Washington Post, CIA agents discussed whether they should remove El-Masri from Macedonia in an extraordinary rendition. The decision to do so was made by the head of the al Qaeda division of the CIA's Counter-Terrorism Center, on the basis of "a hunch" that El-Masri was involved in terrorism; his name was similar to Khalid al-Masri, strongly suspected as a terrorist.*

I can't think of a worse way to completely ruin an innocent man's life. He was basically a "Soccer Dad".

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