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The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#101

Post by GeorgeTirebiter »

dutchbrit wrote: post #58

Bruce mentions that one of the reasons why people should stay calm is that terrorists are dumb. However, this could be the actions of a new Unabomber (let us hope it isn't), who managed to go on a bombing streak for 18 years without being caught. It's really too early to start making assumptions. I say, don't keep calm and carry on, take this as an example that life can end any second, just like that, out of nowhere.…

You are aware that "we" basically created the Unabomber, yes?

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2000/06/chase.ht...

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#102

Post by epo »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #61

"It turns out that terrorism is much harder than most people think. It's hard to find willing terrorists, it's hard to put a plot together, it's hard to get materials, and it's hard to execute a workable plan. As a collective group, terrorists are dumb, and they make dumb mistakes; criminal masterminds are another myth from movies and comic books." He is very wrong. He is confusing foot soldiers with their leaders. T…

He said "as a collective group", the smartness of the leaders is averaged down by the low quality of the foot soldiers who actually decide to die for the cause.

It is hard to find willing terrorists normally, it becomes easier if you provide your enemies with daily motivation and determination. As others have mentioned, and excluding home grown lunacy, it is easy to avoid terrorism, just don't occupy other countries, oppress their peoples and kill their children.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#103

Post by AgentConundrum »

gizmo686 wrote: post #46
AVTizzle wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I needed to look it up, too: "Bruce Schneier an American cryptographer, computer security specialist, and writer. He is the author of several books on general security topics, computer security and cryptography." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Schneier

If you ask me to name a cryptographer, Scheier is by far the first one that comes to mind. Also, in my experience, his book, Applied Cryptography, is by far the most reccomended book for people new to crypto.

I know basically nothing about cryptography, but Scheier is the first to my mind as well. The only other name that even comes to my mind is Colin Percival, but that's only because of his comments on HN (cperciva).

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#104

Post by jlgreco »

rayiner wrote: post #66
jlgreco wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You define "society" far too narrowly. A society is not an economy, a government, or even a piece of land enclosed by a border. It is an abstract idea, a sort of shared culture and basic methodology. Here is the real trick though, this "New Rome" is not a city. We don't have a seat of power from which we derive our identity and shared culture, or any sort of sackable cultural Mecca which we define ourselves by. You c…

> You define "society" far too narrowly You're defining "society" as a pointless philosophical abstraction. I'm defining "society" in terms of the only thing I care about: the people and country around me. I'm not interested in the history books that remain to be written. I think most Americans feel similarly. It might be satisfying in some intellectual sense if "the worldwide shared culture of the 21st century" (of…

> I'm defining "society" in terms of the only thing I care about: the people and country around me.

The country/government is irrelevant, the people are the society and that is what I am defining it as. Governments have come and gone with great frequency; societies almost always survive them. Really only genocides, cultural or otherwise, can halt them (and mad bombers are in no position to perform any sort of genocide against modern society).

It strikes me as a fairly American-centric viewpoint that conflates American government and American society. Plenty of other countries with strong, long-lived, cultural identities have gone through numerous governments in past centuries, many of these governments lasting a few short decades or less. A government is much easier to kill than a society, and dies with far fewer consequences.

If the death of a society is not what you are actually concerned about, then perhaps you should have put some thought into your initial comment before drawing comparisons to the fall of the roman empire. If merely the fall of governments and economies is what you are worried about, there are countless better examples.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#105

Post by jlgreco »

anigbrowl wrote: post #81
jlgreco wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You define "society" far too narrowly. A society is not an economy, a government, or even a piece of land enclosed by a border. It is an abstract idea, a sort of shared culture and basic methodology. Here is the real trick though, this "New Rome" is not a city. We don't have a seat of power from which we derive our identity and shared culture, or any sort of sackable cultural Mecca which we define ourselves by. You c…

You really ought to look into the history of the dark ages, because under the Pax Romana Europe enjoyed an extremely well-developed civil society that brought self-evident benefits to the participants, just like our culture of appreciation for scientific progress, the arts, and political theories...a culture which is not nearly as universal as you seem to imagine. Also, the word you should be using is 'hordes.' Hoard…

> under the Pax Romana Europe enjoyed an extremely well-developed civil society that brought self-evident benefits to the participants, just like our culture of appreciation for scientific progress, the arts, and political theories...a culture which is not nearly as universal as you seem to imagine.

What is your point? I am not claiming that the aspects of our society that we cherish are unique to our society, or were absent in Roman society.

"...a culture which is not nearly as universal as you seem to imagine."

We are talking essentially about the society of all developed and rapidly developing nations. This is not an American concept; even if this hypothetical mega-attack caused the American governmnet to go tits up it would survive, both domestically and throughout the world. Not even "starvation or hopelessness" would erase this modern identity. Not any starvation falling short of extinction-threatening.

Are particularly American perspectives in our modern society something that is, outside of the US, less than universal (to say the least)? Certainly. But 1) who cares? American perspectives are but few of many in modern society, 2) such perspectives are not endangered, and would not be endangered by any collapse of our particular current government.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#106

Post by MichaelApproved »

TillE wrote: post #87
MichaelApproved wrote: post #61

"It turns out that terrorism is much harder than most people think. It's hard to find willing terrorists, it's hard to put a plot together, it's hard to get materials, and it's hard to execute a workable plan. As a collective group, terrorists are dumb, and they make dumb mistakes; criminal masterminds are another myth from movies and comic books." He is very wrong. He is confusing foot soldiers with their leaders. T…

As yet, there's no indication that this is foreign terrorism. Remember Oklahoma City. There's been no claim of responsibility, and it seems like these were not suicide bombings. These are interesting data points.

No indication of this being a foreign terrorism attack may make my argument less relevant but I still stand behind it.

Your point is also a good example of how terrorists aren't dumb. One of the major things we remember about Oklahoma City was how devastating it was.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#108

Post by MichaelApproved »

epo wrote: post #102
MichaelApproved wrote: post #61

"It turns out that terrorism is much harder than most people think. It's hard to find willing terrorists, it's hard to put a plot together, it's hard to get materials, and it's hard to execute a workable plan. As a collective group, terrorists are dumb, and they make dumb mistakes; criminal masterminds are another myth from movies and comic books." He is very wrong. He is confusing foot soldiers with their leaders. T…

He said "as a collective group", the smartness of the leaders is averaged down by the low quality of the foot soldiers who actually decide to die for the cause. It is hard to find willing terrorists normally , it becomes easier if you provide your enemies with daily motivation and determination. As others have mentioned, and excluding home grown lunacy, it is easy to avoid terrorism, just don't occupy other countries…

"the smartness of the leaders is averaged down by the low quality of the foot soldiers who actually decide to die for the cause."

Deciding to die for a cause does not make you stupid. The 9/11 attackers were intelligent enough to pilot a commercial aircraft. There are also many patriots who love their country and have been willing to die for it. WW II Japanese fighter pilots are a classic example. I wouldn't call those guys low quality.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#109

Post by antman »

cynicalkane wrote: post #15
rayiner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlighten me.

The Germans were the border of the nation of Rome from 100 BC until the Empire fell. They once slaughtered an entire Republic field army--and remember the Republic's army consisted of most of Rome's young, able-bodied citizens. They defeated Augustus, among other emperors, and eventually sacked Rome. Twice. Before making the whole thing collapse. So, small difference.

This is a movie simplification. The Romans copied battle styles from local armies during their conflicts. When Romans started having money problems they started outsourcing their armies to local people and they stopped their public works. When the army started getting less relevant to local affairs and only a tax imposing machine, the locals would turn against the Romans and join the militia. The Germanic leaders were also trained in the Roman army, and the "barbarians" pretty much knew how to conduct warfare and they also knew their weaknesses. So they fought a war of attrition, that forced the Romans to spread out. Soon enough the Romans knew they could not sustain their wars. So the "barbarians" tried different things until they found fight patterns that Rome did not have the technology to beat in a economic way. The Roman nobility had not lost it's privileges but nobody was interested in fighting, and they soldiers were only doing it for money which was not even enough to retire afterwards.

So it is totally irrelevant with the current situation.

Re: The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On

#110

Post by MichaelApproved »

markdown wrote: post #65
MichaelApproved wrote: post #61

"It turns out that terrorism is much harder than most people think. It's hard to find willing terrorists, it's hard to put a plot together, it's hard to get materials, and it's hard to execute a workable plan. As a collective group, terrorists are dumb, and they make dumb mistakes; criminal masterminds are another myth from movies and comic books." He is very wrong. He is confusing foot soldiers with their leaders. T…

> What keeps the US relatively free of terrorism is the massive ocean that's between the terrorists and their target. What keeps most countries relatively free from terrorism is that they aren't occupying other peoples land or bombing their women and children all the way to hell. Ever wonder why extremists haven't bombed the Cook Islands or Peru?

"Ever wonder why extremists haven't bombed the Cook Islands"

It's nice to be a country like the Cook Islands. You're surrounded by a vast ocean that makes it very difficult to attack. Your interests are also protected other, larger nations, so you don't have to do any "dirty work" to protect them.

You also don't have to spend tons of money on a military and can rely on treaties with other countries to provide your defense.

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