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I'm tired

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Re: I'm tired

#101

Post by [deleted] »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #89
danso wrote: post #43

This was painful to read. It's hard to get into the usual is-there-sexism-in-tech-or-not debate because this is so beyond the pale-dysfunctional. First, that anyone could say such a thing in polite company. Second, that the rest of the table did not demand the offending person to leave. Seriously, how is anyone, espicially the targeted woman, expected to enjoy their dinner and have a non-awkward conversation after th…

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a tem…

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Re: I'm tired

#102

Post by rescripting »

niggler wrote: post #86
rescripting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but for a non confrontational person this course of action is still a battle. When you see this all the time and fight it even just by calling it out, it still wears you out. Like it or not the hackerverse is full of people who deemphasize social experiences in favour of other things. When someone makes a comment this inappropriate in public you're not just battling their sexism, you'…

"deemphasize social experiences in favour of other things" The situation shows an active effort in eschewing societal norms. You have to work hard to shut down the mental filter that normally prevents you from making such an off-kilter remark

The set of rules you internalize to be "normal behaviour" is influenced by your environment. A boy growing up in an isolated household in the woods will have a different model of normalcy, and so when he goes in to town he'll seem "off" to everyone else.

My favourite pop culture example of this is Mose Shrute (Dwight's brother) from The Office (US). He doesn't try to be weird, he just is, because he's grown up in family with weird norms. Similarly the offensive guy in this story probably isn't deliberately pushing aside his common sense, he is just being who he is all the time: someone who is poorly socialized.

It's easy to try to bush incidents like this aside by saying "he knew it was wrong and did it anyway, because he is a jerk" but that deflects from the underlying issue. Socializing makes a lot of devs uncomfortable, so they dont do it. They develop their norms in isolation, and then "go in to town" to conferences like GDC and then set off firestorms. Reacting to these situations in person, you start out trying to convince someone that their comment is rude and wrong. However you end up trying to convince them that their whole model of society is wrong. That is what makes me truly tired.

Re: I'm tired

#103

Post by mturmon »

iguana wrote: post #48

That's quite a bold statement to make to someone, basically equivalent to saying, "you're nothing without your genitals". The proper response isn't "I disagree" or even "fuck you", it's a punch to the face. Seriously, if someone tells you, or your friend that they're worthless, you don't have to argue with them, you can knock them the fuck out.

That would be assault, and you could be jailed for it. Plus, then you look like the troglodyte for raising the problem from the verbal domain to the physical domain.

Re: I'm tired

#105

Post by bcoates »

noobface wrote: post #74

You know what I'm tired of: condescension. The guy who was making sexist statements is ignorant, not a "fucking loser." How do you make these situations positive for everyone? Empathy. Empathy for all sides. Everyone exposed to this kind of social ignorance is a victim if you dig deep enough. In the tech world we are quick to call users idiots, each other inept, ideas retarded... I ask for empathy. Empathy for this o…

While I'm not going to argue against empathy in general, registering some blunt disapproval is less of a bullying behavior than saying nothing and passive-aggressively excluding someone, which seems to be the runner-up suggestion in the thread.

Drawing moral equivalence between participating in hostility against women and hostility against the rude and ignorant is a bit of a stretch, too.

Re: I'm tired

#106

Post by jlgreco »

iguana wrote: post #85
erikpukinskis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally, you can't.

Yay! My first downvotes! The law doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything. It simply prescribes a liability. You can educate someone by saying, "your comment is sexist", to which they will save face and complain about your lack of sense of humor, etc. You can also educate them about the consequences of insulting someone with mild violence, which is far more likely to stick with them. Of course, you can't go around…

A punch to the face, in a public setting, to someone that you don't really know is (in America at least) a great way to get arrested and sued. Nothing about that escalated situation would be mild.

It is not the wild west anymore.

Re: I'm tired

#107

Post by drakeandrews »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #79
drakeandrews wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying getting the offender banned from GDC should be the only action, by all means confront the offender too. But you can't expect people to be able to, or feel safe in, confronting someone who has already shown a disregard for their agency. In an ideal world, it'd go something like this: Hear ugly -> confront offender -> extract apology -> inform others But of course, for a large number of people it'll be m…

Why is informing others necessary? You dealt with the problem, give the person a chance to change. If they're a repeat offender, eventually they'll piss off enough people that the overlapping social networks will catch wind of it organically. There's no reason to broadcast, make a list, or "save the world" by putting a face out there as someone to avoid. I see the safety argument making an appearance here yet again,…

If someone is going around causing issues sufficiently that they're a repeat offender, I don't see why they should be given additional chances. Let them have their ever shrinking circle of misogynists, just don't let them into conferences. Access is a privilege, not a right.

The argument that because in these two cases (of the damn near uncountable issues of people having to put up with similar comments, criticisms or slurs) the person in question wasn't in any danger doesn't mean that in every instance the person was neither in danger nor felt in danger. And what's more, these comments, jokes etc. actively contribute to an environment where it is insinuated that these words and by extension these actions are okay.

So an asshat making a sexist joke will hopefully never rape someone, but they're certainly making it a more fertile environment for the bastard who then goes on to rape someone. Under this understanding of the issue, yes it makes sense to actively exclude those people making sexist (or for that matter homophobic, racist etc., the "rape culture" argument extends just fine to other examples) jokes.

Re: I'm tired

#108

Post by danso »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #89
danso wrote: post #43

This was painful to read. It's hard to get into the usual is-there-sexism-in-tech-or-not debate because this is so beyond the pale-dysfunctional. First, that anyone could say such a thing in polite company. Second, that the rest of the table did not demand the offending person to leave. Seriously, how is anyone, espicially the targeted woman, expected to enjoy their dinner and have a non-awkward conversation after th…

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a tem…

Not knowing everything about the OP's situation and/or the company he keeps and/or the relation to everyone else at the table, I'm just saying that if nothing else, leaving out of protest is an option. I don't mean, leave because your stomach isn't feeling well. Leave because the offender is intolerable and make that clear. In certain situations, having a big scene may not be possible...but leaving, and possibly convincing others to join, is far better than just letting things slide.

Re: I'm tired

#109

Post by danielweber »

tiredofcareer wrote: post #89
danso wrote: post #43

This was painful to read. It's hard to get into the usual is-there-sexism-in-tech-or-not debate because this is so beyond the pale-dysfunctional. First, that anyone could say such a thing in polite company. Second, that the rest of the table did not demand the offending person to leave. Seriously, how is anyone, espicially the targeted woman, expected to enjoy their dinner and have a non-awkward conversation after th…

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a tem…

Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.)

It can happen. It takes some guts and if you don't have the social capital with this group you may not be able to pull it off. Everyone goes to a new table but leaves the dickhead sitting there.

Re: I'm tired

#110

Post by danielweber »

gexla wrote: post #23

When I was in basic training for the Army, my drill instructor told us that they can turn us into soldiers but there is nothing they can do to fix 18 years of bad parenting. For me, there are certain traits and ways of thinking that I just can't tolerate. In some cases, I can tolerate those beliefs if the person is able to keep them locked up when I'm around. Usually this person is smart enough to know a certain beli…

You're right that it's not OP's job to fix broken people.

If the broken person wishes to change, he can. He can ask for help. I hope this wasn't a cry for help because it got lost.

However, signalling that his behavior is not OK is important for everyone else at the table. Maybe there is some naive young guy sitting there who didn't think the jerk's comment was okay, but without seeing any kind of sanction he may start thinking "oh, that's how I'm supposed to talk to be respected." Make sure that he doesn't end up thinking that. It's also important for the person who was insulted, of course.

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