Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#101

Post by jsnell » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 1:35 PM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #91

martinced wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're seriously confused as to what a monopoly is and what a monopoly implies. There's nothing wrong with having a monopoly. What is, however, illegal is to abuse your monopoly to keep and extend your monopoly to other domains. Btw Google / Android isn't near anywhere a monopoly in the smartphone / tablet market. What would be illegal would be, for example, Google using its search engine to eliminate any mention of…

Google / Android + Chrome is not a monopoly in the same sense that Windows + Internet Explorer isn't neither. Maybe in other ways MS has abused its position, but not in IE. At least in my opinion. Why? Because IE was a default browser, all the OS have a default browser. Microsoft didn't prohibited anybody from installing another browser. If we consider that a monopoly and something punishable, then Android + Chrome i…

Actually, Microsoft did contractually prohibit OEMs from pre-installing other browsers and making them the default instead.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#102

Post by gsnedders » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 1:35 PM UTC

sbennettmcleish wrote: post #71

Whilst it is Microsoft with bags of money and all that, I don't really see how such a huge fine (even for M$) is warranted. Yes, they stopped offering the browser choice, but at what point did someone from EU-HQ contact MS-HQ and tell them they'll be fined if they don't put it back in? Surely it would only take a few weeks at the most to actually re-instate the "feature" once they were threatened with a huge fine. It…

There was an explicit order in the previous anti-trust ruling that required it. The ruling stated they could be fined up to 10% of their revenue if they failed to comply. They did not comply. They were fined.

It's not like they weren't told about it first.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#103

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 1:41 PM UTC

youngtaff wrote: post #2

It's completely crazy. We've accepted browsers are part of the OS for a long time, what's next fining Apple for not promoting Mozilla or Chrome on iOS?

>We've accepted browsers are part of the OS for a long time

Where? You're making that up.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#104

Post by gjulianm » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 1:42 PM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #101

gjulianm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google / Android + Chrome is not a monopoly in the same sense that Windows + Internet Explorer isn't neither. Maybe in other ways MS has abused its position, but not in IE. At least in my opinion. Why? Because IE was a default browser, all the OS have a default browser. Microsoft didn't prohibited anybody from installing another browser. If we consider that a monopoly and something punishable, then Android + Chrome i…

Actually, Microsoft did contractually prohibit OEMs from pre-installing other browsers and making them the default instead.

Never heard of that. Source?

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#105

Post by grapjas » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 1:45 PM UTC

mda wrote: post #89

omd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, it's the "Don't upset corporations or they will punish us with infinite price hikes" mantra. If they raise the price by €1 and for the sake of argument we assume a net profit of 50%, they would have to sell 1.1 billion packages to recoup the fine (I don't think Microsoft has sold that many software products in their lifetime, but it's a fun little thought experiment). 1.1 billion Windows 8 licences at €280 a piec…

€1 was just figure of speech. (Still, Governments pay for a ton of Microsoft products; Ms office, Windows, Exchange mailboxes, Sharepoint licenses, SQL server licenses etc. etc. How much money do you think Ms makes from EU governments in one year? in 5 years?) High software prices indeed harm tax payers. There is no win-win.

>SQL server The rest I can understand but please tell me this isn't true

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#106

Post by masklinn » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 1:57 PM UTC

brg1007 wrote: post #97

gjulianm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google / Android + Chrome is not a monopoly in the same sense that Windows + Internet Explorer isn't neither. Maybe in other ways MS has abused its position, but not in IE. At least in my opinion. Why? Because IE was a default browser, all the OS have a default browser. Microsoft didn't prohibited anybody from installing another browser. If we consider that a monopoly and something punishable, then Android + Chrome i…

As gjulianm stated, Android is a monopoly in EU. So I do not see any valid argument that Android should be punished the same way as Microsoft is/was.

> As gjulianm stated, Android is a monopoly in EU.

Android is — at best — in a dominant position, but Android also isn't a monolithic entity.

Then comes the second problem: ignoring the non-monolithic nature of Android where e.g. Samsung and HTC — while all using the same base system — compete with one another) being a natural monopoly (or even in a dominant position) is not illegal, abusing such a position to distort other markets is.

If you are an EU citizen and can make such a case, you should feel free to bring it up to EU competition courts. But you have to make the case first.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#107

Post by dworrad » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 2:00 PM UTC

I'm sorry but what about the ipod, iPad, iPhone.... Can't remember them giving me the choice of where I want to buy media. This must be a joke?

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#108

Post by toyg » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 2:04 PM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #104

jsnell wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Microsoft did contractually prohibit OEMs from pre-installing other browsers and making them the default instead.

Never heard of that. Source?

The whole antitrust case in the States was about that: MS abusing his status to force OEMs not to install another browser.

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#109

Post by youngtaff » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 2:06 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #103

youngtaff wrote: post #2

It's completely crazy. We've accepted browsers are part of the OS for a long time, what's next fining Apple for not promoting Mozilla or Chrome on iOS?

>We've accepted browsers are part of the OS for a long time Where? You're making that up.

IE has been bundled in Windows since XP (Win2K even?), Safari has been part of OSX since 2003

Every phone has a browser, and many did before the iPhone launched in 2007 (even if all they had were crappy WAP browsers)

Re: Microsoft fined $731m by European Commission over web browser choice

#110

Post by MichaelApproved » Wed, Mar 06, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

pepperp wrote: post #70

MichaelApproved wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misunderstanding. The problem is that Microsoft is using its OS monopoly to try and create another one. These special anticompetetive triggers only come into effect when the company has a monopoly. To be more clear, there is noting illegal about HAVING a monopoly. It's what you do WITH a monopoly that matters. If you don't have a monopoly, you're much less restricted with what you can do. To correct you analog…

Fair, I get you. I still wouldn't have a problem with the corrected analogy. Firstly, I consider the web browser an integral part of an OS even if you have the choice to replace it, so it's not creating a further monopoly, it's just part of the package (just like tires and the body of a car). But more importantly, problems caused by some monopolies (e.g. extortion), and monopolies themselves, have historically been t…

First, let me say that I like Microsoft. I'm a happy Windows user and developer but what they did with IE was wrong and I'm happy someone tried to hold them accountable.

Originally, Netscape was a thriving company and able to make money by selling it's software to consumers. Microsoft crushed them by giving their interferer browser away for free with their Windows monopoly. For many years after that, consumers had a terrible browser with little to no alternatives.

Eventually, web browsers found a way to compete but consumers suffered with the artificially created IE monopoly. Innovation to slow down and even went backwards during those years.

You're looking at the world today as if it was always thriving with choices but MS inflicted many years of damage to consumers by illegally driving out competition and stifling innovation.

It's important for governments to protect competition and prevent monopoly abuse. You might argue that MS got away with killing Netscape because the fine was worth it for them but at least they were stopped from preventing more damage with their monopoly. Who knows what other businesses they would have tried to shut down.