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Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

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Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#101

Post by scarmig »

halviti wrote: post #87
danso wrote: post #72

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds. How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is…

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

I agree that that's the weirdest part of the journalist's story.

Why doesn't Musk focus on that? Instead of trying to discredit the reporter by saying he maliciously lied about when he turned the heat on or off by a couple miles, or whether the car had actually run out of juice at the very end.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#102

Post by [deleted] »

dlss wrote: post #67
duaneb wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I've never driven a car with a digital gas meter before, but on all the cars I've driven they always have tens of miles when the gas light comes on. EDIT: To be clear, it is extremely stupid to do so.

If you read the article, Broder ignored repeated warnings to stop and use a charging station...

[deleted]

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#103

Post by zevyoura »

OGinparadise wrote: post #71
zevyoura wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing a straw man point; while the speed difference may have contributed to the discharge, I don't believe anyone's arguing it made the difference.

Not really, if you look at Tesla's blog post, they even highlighted that went at 80mph for a while or once. Why did they do that? To prove that he didn't write a book (a story wouldn't fit it) and detail every speed he drove or because they speed matters?

No, they did it because he said that he set the cruise control to 54 mph (a very specific number), which is clearly refuted by the data. In other words, it destroys his credibility.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#104

Post by halviti »

niggler wrote: post #95
halviti wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

You haven't read the arguments carefully: If the car tells you it has half a tank left, and if you find out 10 miles later that the car is almost empty, who do you blame? Do you blame the driver for not having filled the tank or do you blame the car for potentially misreporting the levels? In context, I wonder if the data recorded by the tesla is indeed the same data reported on the dashboard. What would be cool and…

If you assume that at no point during the journey did the gauge correct itself, and that the reporter was right to just drive past fueling stations until he "had to be towed", then you assume the vehicle has serious operational problems.

I will wait for more evidence before I believe that to be the case.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#105

Post by tomrod »

grecy wrote: post #38
OGinparadise wrote: post #19

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

> 45 mph or 52mph, it's the same crap to me. In Australia, you'll get a $100 speeding ticket for going 7MPH over the limit. You need to drive more carefully. http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/penalties/speeding.html

This is a law I could get behind. People regularly go 15 MPH over where I live--which is unsafe on the specific road I have in mind.

The road is not a personal time transport no matter how late you are!

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#106

Post by lawdawg »

halviti wrote: post #87
danso wrote: post #72

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds. How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is…

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

Did you (or 99% of HN) read the NYT article?

"When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range"

"I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to “condition” the battery pack to restore the lost energy."

Looking back, I should have bought a membership to Butch’s and spent a few hours there while the car charged. The displayed range never reached the number of miles remaining to Milford, and as I limped along at about 45 miles per hour I saw increasingly dire dashboard warnings to recharge immediately. Mr. Merendino, the product planner, found an E.V. charging station about five miles away.

But the Model S had other ideas. “Car is shutting down,”"

---

Sounds like he was in constant contact with Tesla and they incorrectly stated that the ~65 miles lost overnight would magically return, and Mr. Broder, unfortunately, took them for their word and left the charging station with the dash showing less than the amount needed to make the trip.

Who is the real "liar" here?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#107

Post by lawdawg »

scarmig wrote: post #101
halviti wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

I agree that that's the weirdest part of the journalist's story. Why doesn't Musk focus on that? Instead of trying to discredit the reporter by saying he maliciously lied about when he turned the heat on or off by a couple miles, or whether the car had actually run out of juice at the very end.

Because focusing on that would be admitting that:

1. The Tesla lost ~65 miles worth of range overnight 2. That their staff told Mr. Broder that the lost miles would return on their own.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#108

Post by stcredzero »

arrrg wrote: post #83
stcredzero wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing wrong with replication, it’s just that it’s wholly unable to clear anything up in this case. Sorry, but not only John Broder's intentions are in question here. If a bunch of other journalists replicate the trip, but come out with results more in line with Tesla's view, then this calls into question Broder's accuracy, intent or no. You know, there's an empirical context underlying everything here.

Not really, no. The main questions that could be replicated are not at all disputed. The rest cannot be. Simple as that.

The "rest" doesn't matter, and a comparative measure of Mr. Broder's accuracy as a reporter can still be established.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#109

Post by halviti »

lawdawg wrote: post #106
halviti wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

Did you (or 99% of HN) read the NYT article? "When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range" "I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to “condition” the battery pack to restore the lost energy." Look…

Nobody is lying, but if you get in your car and it tells you that you can only you can only go 25 miles, do you really think it's ok to drive over twice that?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#110

Post by [deleted] »

naftaliharris wrote: post #49
adastra wrote: post #24

The "Norwich Charge" data point is all you need to understand what happened here. Notice how vague Broder is in his original account: "After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a pla…

> Elon might have been better off concentrating on this point more, rather than some of the smaller inaccuracies. I agree. Often when you're arguing, you have a really strong argument and a few weaker ones. You'd think that making both the strong argument and the weaker ones would be the best case, (ie, that the strength of your case equals the sum of the strength of its components). In fact, in public discourse ofte…

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