Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java • Hacker News Board

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#101

Post by bunderbunder » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

sc0rb wrote: post #83

VexXtreme wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see that. Java really deserves to die a death at this point.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I'd vote for replacing it with Mono.

Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'.

* Not really a great Lisp for the platform yet, but I prefer F# to Scala. Much cleaner syntax, 'feels' more functional.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#102

Post by kunai » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:28 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #22

josephagoss wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle don't care about happy people, and a lack of happy people dealing with Oracle has not stopped their massive profits so why would they start now? I think this is extra worse than normal bundling, because its a friggin platform! A basis for applications, it smells as bad as Microsoft asking to install a toolbar during the OS install.

I just remembered that Ubuntu ships with Amazon ads on their OS search bar... Seriously, how worse stuff can get? I imagine a future. A bright future. A future where everyone sees data, with Google Glasses like technology and beyond. And thus, where they have ads in front of them all the time, you arrive home, look at your daughter in the crib, and suddenly your entire vision is plastered with a semi-transparent ad f…

Okay, the Ubuntu thing is really out-of-hand at this point. It really is not that big of a deal. One terminal command and they're gone.

Seriously, Canonical is a company, and they have to pay their bills like the rest of us. The Amazon search isn't "spyware," it's nothing but an additional search lens, and you can turn it off.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#103

Post by pron » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:33 PM UTC

VexXtreme wrote: post #89

sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent dev tools). The whole community is full of…

So, do you mean Java or the JVM? Because here we're talking about the JVM; that means Java, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala etc.

Sometimes the JVM isn't the right tool; Java the language is often the wrong tool. But when you need to write large, high-performance, backend software, the JVM is pretty much the only rational choice. C/C++ is too expensive effort-wise, in development, in maintenance and in monitoring. Erlang is awesome, but it's too slow for some things. .Net is not robust on non-windows platforms (I'm not sure about this, but this is the common perception). Go is slower than Java, lacks the huge ecosystem, and also doesn't provide all the JVM goodies like runtime instrumentation and profiling, hot code swapping, good monitoring etc. Rust is too immature (and won't give you those benefits either). So, pretty often, the JVM is the only choice and you think it's time to kill it?

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#104

Post by sc0rb » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:43 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #101

sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I'd vote for replacing it with Mono. Modern VM design, vastly superior flagship language, pretty solid on the side languages* too, better platform support (Thanks Xamarin!), and best yet it's Free. Like really Free, not Oracle-style "Here's the source code so you can maybe hack on our implementation a bit but if you try doing anything we don't like we'll sue your ass" 'free'. * Not really a great Lisp for the platfor…

Mono isn't proven anywhere near as much as the JVM.

I don't know why this is being downvoted. It's true that the JVM is one of the things in the Java ecosystem that is looked upon as a massive success.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#105

Post by sixbrx » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:44 PM UTC

fierarul wrote: post #85

Apreche wrote: post #42

Petition: Programmers, stop using the Oracle versions of Java. Too many of your Java programs only work properly with Oracle JVM, etc. Instead, standardize on another one of the Java implementations so that it can become the premiere implementation and really screw with Oracle.

Which other Java implementations? Apache's is abandoned. OpenJDK is basically still Oracle. What's left? IBM's JDK?

I'm really a bit surprised that there's not a prominent fork of OpenJDK by now, concentrating on the VM and not the Java compiler ("OpenJVM").

Tail calls, value types, easier direct calls to C to process large regions of data without copying (e.g. lapack): there are many things which could benefit non-Java languages on the JVM like Clojure and Scala that are taking too long with Oracle stewardship (as they did with Sun's as well). Maybe these things are in fact too hard to implement for small or unfunded groups?

I hope not, I think it's high time.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#106

Post by joeblau » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:45 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #8

I can sure see Oracle responding to a petition on the Internet!

This is what I was trying to figure out. Say they get a quarter million signatures; does that mean Oracle will remove the Ask toolbar? I highly doubt it.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#107

Post by sc0rb » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:46 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #91

sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

No reason? I'd say their ham-handed approach to security and their contentment to sit with their thumbs up their arses, while vulnerabilities whose magnitude compare favorably with the US national debt are being exploited widely is more than enough reason to hate Java. At least Microsoft has the good sense to issue OOB patches when something serious enough comes up! The current state of Java means that running the br…

Then stop running it in the browser.

Do you have any idea how ubiquitous java is in the enterprise? Everywhere uses java.

Have you ever worked on anything that needs to be scalable, extensible and maintainable?

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#108

Post by sc0rb » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:48 PM UTC

VexXtreme wrote: post #89

sc0rb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py? You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent dev tools). The whole community is full of…

Maybe you need a better job at a better company that hires better technical talent so you're not forever stuck on your legacy, xml configured Spring stack?

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#109

Post by alpeb » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:48 PM UTC

VexXtreme wrote: post #67

tobiasu wrote: post #15

On the contrary, please continue. Improve it by adding BonziBuddy and friends. Please please please ruin your already non-existent reputation, Oracle. Help ordinary people who have no idea what Oracle is, connect your name with spam and spyware (and security problems, ofc).

I would love to see that. Java really deserves to die a death at this point.

Java bashing is the cool thing to do. And just to add more wood into the fire I'm gonna drop a quote from Larry Ellison himself that I think is spot on. He said something like the only industry more driven by fashion than fashion itself is IT.

Re: Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

#110

Post by foohbarbaz » Tue, Feb 05, 2013, 4:52 PM UTC

Meh. Let this kill the default Java install on Windows.

When I need to deliver an app written in Java to the end user I just include my own JRE. You have to do it pretty much anyway in order to guarantee that your app works regardless of quirks of particular system/installation.