Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD. • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#101

Post by pvaldes » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 11:50 AM UTC

acuozzo wrote: post #49

hardhead wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often, you don't. When I applied to graduate school I intended to keep my full time "real pay" job. My PhD program only accepted students who would take a graduate student stipend and commit full time to the "program." After going through it, I understand why they want that commitment and I would not recommend anyone try to get a PhD in the spare time.

That's a shame. So, basically, choosing to start a family first keeps you out of academia forever by design .

In a lot of cases, yes. Specially for women

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#102

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 11:54 AM UTC

jb17 wrote: post #60

ricw wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At good uk universities you get excellent guidance, with multiple intermittent milestones and ongoing scrutinisation of your progress. Unless you pick a rubbish supervisor who simply doesn't care. Though I only can speak of Oxford..

It's also important to note that the supervising culture varies a lot between subjects. Computer scientists are usually spoiled by good supervision, but in the humanities you might see your supervisor only twice a year.. (and I do know people in Oxford in that situation).

[deleted]

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#103

Post by raverbashing » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:00 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #100

raverbashing wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one important issue with this picture You don't have the bigger picture. In fact sometimes you don't even know that a person in another country (or why not, maybe in another university in the same city) did what you were trying to do, or already knows something you don't. Not to mention the Feuds, aah the feuds. Like something showing up in IEEE but in ACM it's gone and forgotten (or the other way round)

Well yeah, this is why we have a couple of things: * Literature reviews. Check the published literature before thinking you've got an original research proposal. * Conference/journal reviewers. If something's unoriginal in your paper, they will reject you in an instant .

Of course. But even with this sometimes it's hard

And reviewers sometimes skip things.

This is a very good reason for open-access, searchable publications.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#104

Post by rmk2 » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:07 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #88

snogglethorpe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take this with an enormous grain of salt, but some vague memories from conversations with UK grad students (I worked in a UK university for a few years a while back): (1) UK undergrad programs are a lot more focused, so students tend to be a lot further along before they start a PhD program. (2) UK PhD students are funded for a fixed time 3(?) years, and then you're supposed to be done. That doesn't always happen, of…

> UK undergrad programs are a lot more focused, so students tend to be a lot further along before they start a PhD program. It depends. Definitely doing a theory-based PhD can benefit from a European (not just UK) undergrad education, but in systems or implementation, American undergrads actually have an edge (everything else being equal, which is never true). > PhD students are funded for a fixed time 3(?) years, an…

That is because American PhD and English PhD are fundamentally different. English PhD programmes usually have no curriculum (or only coursed to bring everyone up to the same level coming from their previous degrees during 4-year courses that are highly interdisciplinary).

In the sciences, people either do 4 year undergrad degrees followed by 4 year (usually funded) PhDs, or they do 3/2/3 years (undergrad/Masters/PhD). In the social sciences and humanities, 3/2/3 or 3/1/3 or 4/1/3 are normal, going from undergrad directly into PhD is higly unusual in these.

The US 5/6 years usually include a Masters degree, as far as I know, which is usually not the case in the UK.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#105

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:10 PM UTC

ucee054 wrote: post #98

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF!? Critique is a common learning method in many other fields, like art, music, design, journalism, and politics. Hand feeding and teaching is fine a dandy at the beginner undergrad level, but you reach a point quickly where you have to rely more on yourself to become better. Criticism starts out from your teachers and peers, and eventually you learn how to be self critical on your own. But you are right, this isn'…

A PhD isn't about critique. It's about: A) finding a grant-buzzword-friendly research direction ( Green ICT social networking for wireless sensor motes anyone?) B) politicking to get as many publications squeezed out from one's meagre results as possible ( Buddy, submit to the special edition of this journal because I'M the guest editor ) If the advisor doesn't TEACH the student how to navigate the bullshit, the stud…

This is an extremely cynical point of view. Even if there is some truth to it (especially in Chinese universities), it's not what most of us do with our PhDs. Definitely not most of the google PhDs I know, nor my MSR colleagues. Academic politics isn't the only place to go with a phd.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#106

Post by guylhem » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:18 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #89

guylhem wrote: post #54

I could not disagree more with the author - in fact at the moment I feel sorry for her. TLDR: PhD is not for whimps Yes it has the potential to break you, yes you will have very or little feedback loop and almost no money, and yes more people look forward being in academia for the freedom to pursue whatever research they fancy. But this whole interpretation is very very wrong. A PhD is a life changing experience - yo…

> I believe this is wrong, because anyone who wants to do that believes that its own interests are for some reason better than what the market values. It's good and all, do whatever you fancy, but not on my dime - not on public money. Get a real job. If that's your chosen frame of reference, then that's not your dime. Or the public 's dime. At that point it's the market 's dime. And the market doesn't particularly ca…

True, the market doesn't care. However, I do.

I just believe any given individual is less likely to be right that the market, as an emanation of the will of many many people (at least on a statistical basis)

Traditionally, academia wants to work on the problems it deems worth its time. I don't like that - it's working on a fancy, on the public dime. My dime.

Working on the market dime on something the market fancies is totally different.

Sure, sometimes it may not be the most ambitious for the long term worth of the human race (so many social networks and ads placements out there), and sometimes the plans of specific individuals are better.

But if such individuals can be rewarded by the market for their previous efforts, they can then use their own money to work on their projects and ideas. They will even be rewarded again if they did something the market needed but didn't know it wanted.

Basically, I see that as doing real work (not in academia), and if this is successful, using the surplus you made to work on your fancies - because then, the kind of ideas you have and the kind of work you do have been validated by the market.

In any case, you are not spending the public money, and you are redeemable (you can be fired or run out of your own money) which discourages waste.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#107

Post by thisone » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:19 PM UTC

10dpd wrote: post #20

cschmidt wrote: post #4

Boy, all the articles about Ph.D.'s on HN are so negative. I had a great time getting mine. I got a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from Carnegie Mellon. I guess it must depend a lot on the subject you're studying. We mostly did classes for the first two years. We got an adviser in the second year, and gradually ramped up the research. I finished in 4 years and 3 months. Pretty much everyone in the program would finish…

Note that there is a huge difference between the UK PhD and the US PhD process. In the UK you are left to your own devices for 3 years, and only find out if the external examiner even approves of your research questions in the one and only final verbal exam. It is up to you alone to ensure the research is valid and makes a contribution. US PhD candidates have a lot more guidance and handholding that includes 4 years…

I believe what you're referring to is this, taken from the University of York Computer Science PhD pages:

"Please note also that all Research students embarking on a PhD programme are initially enrolled provisionally for that qualification. It is the responsibility of the student’s Thesis Advisory Panel to recommend whether or not the student’s enrolment for the PhD should be confirmed (consideration & confirmation takes place within 2 years for full time students and four years for part time students). Confirmations are approved by the University's Standing Committee on Assessment. For more information please contact"

Which, standing on it's own, sounds a bit frightening, but when read in context, you see that students are not left to their own devices or 2-4 years:

http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/postgraduate/research-degrees/phd/

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#108

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

rmk2 wrote: post #104

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UK undergrad programs are a lot more focused, so students tend to be a lot further along before they start a PhD program. It depends. Definitely doing a theory-based PhD can benefit from a European (not just UK) undergrad education, but in systems or implementation, American undergrads actually have an edge (everything else being equal, which is never true). > PhD students are funded for a fixed time 3(?) years, an…

That is because American PhD and English PhD are fundamentally different . English PhD programmes usually have no curriculum (or only coursed to bring everyone up to the same level coming from their previous degrees during 4-year courses that are highly interdisciplinary). In the sciences, people either do 4 year undergrad degrees followed by 4 year (usually funded) PhDs, or they do 3/2/3 years (undergrad/Masters/PhD…

We had a couple of years of light course work in my phd school, followed by research. We didn't have a masters in our path either (I don't have one). But a master degree is not very relevant to a CS phd.

We (US vs. UK PhDs) aren't that different, we compete at about the same level on completion (with typical personal variations, of course). Even the length of the PhD program doesn't seem to be as important as total length in field.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#109

Post by tehwalrus » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 12:37 PM UTC

If you go into a PhD not wanting to investigate a really specialist area for 3-4 years and then write 100,000 words about it that only 3 other people will ever read, you've not understood the exercise.

Concentration and motivation come and go, but if you're curious enough about the universe then investigating one tiny facet of it in minute detail will always be something you come back to, especially if you'll get the credit for "solving" it (even if only within a tiny crowd).

Plus, realising how little you've achieved (but how much you've learned) as you enter your 3rd year is a real kicker.

Sincerely, a PhD student 1 month into my 3rd year.

Footnote: I'm at Imperial College London, which has a kick-ass transferable skills programme which included (for me) a 4-day residential team skills training course, a "Mini-MBA" (5 lectures, 2 seminars), competency analysis, leadership training, MBTI self-analysis, and a couple of other courses I've forgotten about. You had to attend like 4 credits' worth in the first year, but the rest of that stuff I chose to learn. It was all awesome.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#110

Post by blablabla123 » Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 1:22 PM UTC

There are a lot of contradicting opinions about whether to do a PhD out there. The article together with most comments I read, just makes the issue more paradox.

I can only speak for myself, I studied swiftly Physics (diploma) in the number of semesters I was supposed to. While doing so there were some twists and turns in my private life, making my private life suck a lot when I finished my degree. So after all I also did not get a top grade, making myself think, screw the PhD thing. Anyway, I cannot tell how freed (and tiiiired) I felt when I handed in my f*g thesis.

Eventhough I did not go for the PhD for different reasons, I can understand that a person with a private life and non-optimal environment can have a "unpleasant" experience. On the other hand, I get the impression that top employers are increasingly looking for PhDs. In particular on challenging positions companies seem to love PhDs -- and not really like non-PhDs.