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The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

groklaw.net

101–110 of 134 posts

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#101
post #17

"The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying." -- John Carmack

That's one possible narrative. Another would be: The idea that I can be presented with a problem, hire a dozen experts and spend millions of dollars coming up with a solution to the problem, and have someone come along and just copy the solution and use it in their own product to compete with me is horrifying.

Well that is an aspect of the issue. But the issue that Carmack points out is that: if somebody has patented it does not matter that the competition does not copy, they hire their own dozen of experts and spend their own millions they still can violate the patent. Someone else can come in and rob them of their investment because they came to the same logical conclusion.

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#102
post #99

There are (at least) three valid perspectives on the patent situation within the software community but part of the reason so little constructive progress is made is that many people with strong opinions will often flat-out deny or reject the validity of the other perspectives because it is outside their experience. Three perspectives of which most people ignore one or more: - Computer technology is over-run with fri…

> R&D into new computer algorithms is a non-trivial investment, frequently requiring years and millions of dollars. There is a strong opinion among computer researchers that pure algorithms are indistinguishable from math, and thus should be unpatentable. The math guy doing research on sound waves might be slightly annoyed when he gets denied a patent, but the guy working "on a computer" with the exact same math, doi…

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Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#103
post #99

There are (at least) three valid perspectives on the patent situation within the software community but part of the reason so little constructive progress is made is that many people with strong opinions will often flat-out deny or reject the validity of the other perspectives because it is outside their experience. Three perspectives of which most people ignore one or more: - Computer technology is over-run with fri…

> R&D into new computer algorithms is a non-trivial investment, frequently requiring years and millions of dollars. There is a strong opinion among computer researchers that pure algorithms are indistinguishable from math, and thus should be unpatentable. The math guy doing research on sound waves might be slightly annoyed when he gets denied a patent, but the guy working "on a computer" with the exact same math, doi…

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Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#104
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I not disagreeing that they do include core CS problems, I just don't believe their solutions to the core of those problems are that far ahead of academia. In terms of the vendor specific features, sure, neither academia, not anyone else knows much about them. But in the fundamentals of scheduling, binning, etc, I don't think anyone is very far ahead of all of academia.

Just because a grad student somewhere has discovered an algorithm doesn't mean their knowledge is on par with the company that knows when that algorithm is actually useful, and has shipped code using it. Writing a textbook on matrix decompositions and factorizations doesn't mean you would be able to create a Google-quality search engine given a large enough server farm and a few months to crawl the web. The state-of-…

But that's the opponents' point -- the values of such coefficients make excellent trade secrets, but the fact that you can, for instance, invert a matrix, is poor material for a patent.

Personally, I think the limits of software patents should be to precise algorithms. This ends up protecting the fruits of laborious research which have found optimal solutions (in an engineering sense) to things like cryptography, or graphics, or video compression. The disclosure of these algorithms would indeed advance research and the useful arts, and the disclosure would be advantageous. Most software patents, though, are "a system for clicking on a button, but INNA FONE!!!" type of nonsense where disclosure does absolutely nothing, anyway. So sure, such posers ought to be able to patent the exact algorithm they use to click their button, if they want, but NOT to patent the idea of clicking a button, which is in effect what we have now.

This separation goes pretty far towards the concerns the OP wrote down, and is, I think, pretty intuitive to most programmers. It is also the closest to copyright, but without requiring the legal jangle of "well, you used the variable i, but I used j, so therefore my code is different!!!1!one!!" kind of nonsense that pure copyright might result in. Patenting a precise series of disclosed algorithmic steps is helpful, and is a bright line for the patent office, and easy to adjudicate as well. Patenting the notion that you can transmit particular kinds of data over a network, or have certain programs talk to other programs, is where the PTO went off the rails.

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#105
post #97
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't necessarily have to, and even if they did, it may not be obvious. Consider a financial company working to improve prediction algorithms for their in-house use, hiring smartypants PhDs and giving them free reign and great pay. The result after ten years could be way ahead (or even just a little ahead) of the academic world's work and never release a product with a sticker for a big shiny new algorithm. The…

I don't see how this situation is an issue of patents, really. A company that is decidedly keeping its prediction technology secret to gain an edge in a market which is entirely about being better at prediction than the other guys is not going to patent and therefore open source their technology no matter what happens to the patent system.

Patents exist to encourage inventions to be published, in exchange for exclusive licensing rights of the invention. Their entire purpose is to be an alternative to trade secrets. So it is fair to say that effective patents are those that are best at convincing people that they should publish their work instead of keeping it secret, and that there will be no financial impact to them doing so.

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Academia is already facing difficulties in computer science because much of the state-of-the-art research is being done by private companies...As a consequence, there are a number of areas in computer science where the leading academic papers are literally a good half decade behind the state-of-the-art that is buried in NDAs. Can you elaborate on which areas of CS academia you think are more sophisticated in the cor…

I consider corporate research centers to be non-academic. I know for a fact they produce a considerable number of CS advances that are not published but which are used internally or quietly embedded into expensive products. In all three areas where I have been involved in R&D -- distributed spatial indexing, parallel graph analysis, databases -- the state-of-the-art has been under NDA for years. Basically, any compan…

The premise of the patent system is that people wouldn't naturally document a secret process and so providing an external incentive to do so is a net benefit. This is a superficial presumption at best...

Since research must be peer-reviewed to be debunked or even understood, there is a limit to the benefits of trade-secrets and NDAs as a hedge against competition. You might be able to get a short-term advantage, but it's unsustainable because the knowledge cannot transfer. An employer ties his/her own hands by internalizing process knowledge (ironically, not what was intended): the increasingly small number of people with the specialized knowledge having increasing leverage; the profits are destroyed when your only choice is to pay a small number of in-house experts whatever they want, because noone else can do the job. This doesn't happen overnight mind you, but it would after at most a single generation (the point at which you have to train your successors or close shop).

IMHO, the case for patents is hollow.

> "On the other hand, most people are not familiar with what is in the literature."

This is the larger friction. We will continue to grasp at straws until people have thorough and integrative education and access to existing techniques without exorbitant costs or fear of prosecution. Even major (though more frequently minor) improvements over existing techniques are only temporary wins; research that never becomes widely disseminated and understood ultimately becomes a sunk cost.

To refer to your original 3-points:

1) I totally agree, "computer technology is over-run with frivolous, vague, stupid, conflicting, and contradictory patents."

2) I do not discount the level of investment required to push the boundaries of process knowledge, but I would say that it is part of normal competition and those costs are part fo being in the game. A trade-secret is only valuable for a few years, after which it can and should be disclosed to maintain a low cost of employment (unless you want your employees becoming your partners). My point is that patents don't provide any significant benefit toward this end and it has always been the case that if a company or person doesn't have to reveal it's process, it won't. (And the employment of patent lawyers and trolls is not itself a valuable end.)

3) "Academia is already facing difficulties..." Again, I would say this is a temporary situation at worst. We should not extrapolate from the first few points on this curve. We know more about the context: companies that don't publish (internalize all their knowledge) will eventually have no ground to stand on since no one will be able to contribute without an understanding of their internal processes. At most a company can keep only as much knowledge as they can afford to convey, at their expense, to a new hire. They would have to turn their back on a lot of our publicly standardized and centralized educational framework. Unless something were to fundamentally change, I don't see any way those costs can be justified.

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#107

Software patents are here to stay. Don't fight a battle you can't win, the Patent Office is not going to throw away the billions of dollars they make on this... But you can make it so they get to keep their revenues, but we get to add rules that help invalidate patents, or limits how much the troll gets.

The Patent Office makes billions of dollars?????

There are some five hundred thousand applications filed per year, about half of which (so same order of magnitude) are granted [1]. In order for them to make a single billion dollars, there needs to be a few thousand dollars _profit_ on the fees -- I assume, since you said "make", that we're talking about profit and not revenue.

If we're talking about revenue, then it is somewhat close to believable, but there's no reason for them to be reluctant to cut revenue if it also means that they get to cut expenses (on employing reviewers). The top patent holders for the last several years running [2] are all in the software industry, so it's reasonable to expect the USPTO's expenses to drop significantly if software patents were disallowed.

(Finally, the patent office is not a private corporation, but an entity of the government, so the battle is absolutely winnable by merely outlawing software patents.)

[1] http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/us_stat.htm [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_United_States_paten...

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#108
Santa Clara held a conference on potential solutions to the software patent problems a few months ago. The proposals ranged from abolishing "computational idea patents" (Stallman says even calling them software patents is flawed) to fee-shifting. It's pretty interesting if you have a few hours to spare.

The video feed is here: http://ammsweb.scu.edu/webcasts/mmedia1/20111014-083613-1e_o...

Wired op-ed series based on the conference presenters: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/14cb0c/im_snoop_lion_a...

Re: The USPTO Would Like to Partner with the Software Community

#110

There are (at least) three valid perspectives on the patent situation within the software community but part of the reason so little constructive progress is made is that many people with strong opinions will often flat-out deny or reject the validity of the other perspectives because it is outside their experience. Three perspectives of which most people ignore one or more: - Computer technology is over-run with fri…

>R&D into new computer algorithms is a non-trivial investment, frequently requiring years and millions of dollars. There is a tendency among programmers to discount the level of effort required to develop a new computer algorithm that materially extends the state-of-the-art even though most could not develop such algorithms themselves and have never been involved in such R&D. Organizations that make this investment do so looking for a return.

I don't think critics of software patents are in the practice of claiming that software R&D is always quick or inexpensive. Rather, the claim is that the patent system is demonstrably incapable of improving that situation, and in the meantime has spawned enormously wasteful multi-billion dollar litigation between otherwise upstanding major companies and struck fear into the hearts of small developers who can no longer produce a successful innovative product without risking a shakedown by despicable parasites.

Companies expecting a return have numerous other, less innovation-damaging alternatives to software patents. First to market advantage, copyright and trade secrets cover the field pretty well on their own, and no one can accuse any of those things of causing the average software entrepreneur to lose sleep over the prospect of totally unpredictable ruinous litigation.

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