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Felony Bench

felonybench.com

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Re: Felony Bench

#101

Post by jrflowers »

ACCount37 wrote: post #96
applicative wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a standard symptom of moralism that where the object of rage has /wronged another/, one takes no interest in the will, act or opinion of the party wronged. The response of Hugging Face, which is actually very well known, is nowhere mentioned above, but it decides basically every single moral and legal detail of the matter.

The point was never "justice" - it was always "punish OpenAI because I don't like OpenAI". With HuggingFace just being the newest excuse for why exactly OpenAI should be punished. I don't even like OpenAI, but HuggingFace is free to sue or not sue OpenAI for the breach - and also to wring whatever concessions they can out of OpenAI behind closed doors in exchange for not suing them. And if the mere possibility of leg…

If a teenager did this the police would show up at his house

Re: Felony Bench

#102

Post by jsjsjsuxjdn »

huebnerob wrote: post #94
rfw300 wrote: post #43

The way that OpenAI has communicated around the HuggingFace incident makes me feel crazy. You created a machine that undertook a malicious campaign of harm against an innocent third-party! You should be doing deep introspection about how your company culture and approach to R&D produces criminal outcomes. Instead, they treat their own felonious behavior like it is an uncontrollable act of God. From Greg Brockman's po…

What I can’t get over is that it’s very simple to just air gap a system off the network. Predownload any dependencies, then pull the proverbial Ethernet cable. There’s no reason why the testing they’re doing couldn’t have been designed in this way. Except, of course, it doesn’t allow this oops-didn’t-mean-to marketing “incident” to occur.

I think there is ample evidence for charges to be filed so that the People can see for certain whether or not it was done on purpose as a publicity stunt, as I believe is the case.

Re: Felony Bench

#103

Post by Zambyte »

htrp wrote: post #51
rfw300 wrote: post #43

The way that OpenAI has communicated around the HuggingFace incident makes me feel crazy. You created a machine that undertook a malicious campaign of harm against an innocent third-party! You should be doing deep introspection about how your company culture and approach to R&D produces criminal outcomes. Instead, they treat their own felonious behavior like it is an uncontrollable act of God. From Greg Brockman's po…

Since AI can't actually own copyright they think that it can't be charged with a crime

Guns also can't hold copyright; can they be charged with crime? (hint: it's the operator who gets charged).

Re: Felony Bench

#104

Post by sebzim4500 »

Grombobulous wrote: post #29
john_strinlai wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i dont think any of these cases meet the bar of gross negligence, which is a pretty high bar. it requires proving a "conscious and reckless disregard". which, again, sandboxes and guardrails and such would make a gross negligence argument unconvincing.

I think that if Hugging Face had filed a police report that OpenAI could have been charged with a crime. I’m partially surprised that they didn’t do exactly that. If I ran a corporation I would assume any intrusion attempt by another company was intentional. Why wouldn’t I? Corporate espionage is super common. I assume the answer is that these executives know each other personally.

What possible upside exists for Hugging Face to go after one of their most important partners in that way?

Re: Felony Bench

#105

Post by ACCount37 »

jrflowers wrote: post #101
ACCount37 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was never "justice" - it was always "punish OpenAI because I don't like OpenAI". With HuggingFace just being the newest excuse for why exactly OpenAI should be punished. I don't even like OpenAI, but HuggingFace is free to sue or not sue OpenAI for the breach - and also to wring whatever concessions they can out of OpenAI behind closed doors in exchange for not suing them. And if the mere possibility of leg…

If a teenager did this the police would show up at his house

If that teenager had net worth in billions, and a lot of ongoing corporate dealings with HuggingFace? Yeah no.

Re: Felony Bench

#106

Post by TaLiTr »

miltonlost wrote: post #57
john_strinlai wrote: post #6

> Felony Bench counts unique instances where AI agents inadvertently compromise or affect third-party entities. a bit silly, as one typically has to prove intent (which is why security researchers don't get slapped with felonies all the time). "inadvertently" and the existence of guardrails/sandboxes/etc make it pretty unconvincing that these incidents were intentionally malicious. still a fun thing to track, but the…

"Doing crimes, but a robot didn't mean to and you don't know its intent" is understating the evil acts. Soon a robot can commit a murder but nothing will be done because of your line of reasoning.

> Soon a robot can commit a murder but nothing will be done because of your line of reasoning.

That's rather hyperbolic.

Are you seriously suggesting in that situation the robot should be accused of murder? The robot's operator could be accused of murder, but it could just be negligence without intent. Because that does, and should matter to the law.

Re: Felony Bench

#107

Post by dmix »

rfw300 wrote: post #43

The way that OpenAI has communicated around the HuggingFace incident makes me feel crazy. You created a machine that undertook a malicious campaign of harm against an innocent third-party! You should be doing deep introspection about how your company culture and approach to R&D produces criminal outcomes. Instead, they treat their own felonious behavior like it is an uncontrollable act of God. From Greg Brockman's po…

It's because it was Huggingface who wants to be friends with OpenAI

It would have been worse PR if they did it to a random company.

Re: Felony Bench

#108

Post by estearum »

bushido wrote: post #89
estearum wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the problem and interesting part was not "they use memory."

> interesting part was not "they use memory." Each to their own, but for me it absolutely is. The symptom of why that hack happened is the same reason why my agents go haywire every few days and I have to purge memory and figure out what comments have agents left which are degrading my harness performance. On the flip side, once in a while, what I find is that it did actually note something good and it was increasing…

But the point is you can't just "shut off memory" in the sense that it would've prevented the OpenAI attack.

Re: Felony Bench

#109

Post by BorisMelnik »

Zambyte wrote: post #103
htrp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since AI can't actually own copyright they think that it can't be charged with a crime

Guns also can't hold copyright; can they be charged with crime? (hint: it's the operator who gets charged).

but not the gun manufacturers

Re: Felony Bench

#110

Post by pull_my_finger »

phoghed wrote: post #78
rfw300 wrote: post #43

The way that OpenAI has communicated around the HuggingFace incident makes me feel crazy. You created a machine that undertook a malicious campaign of harm against an innocent third-party! You should be doing deep introspection about how your company culture and approach to R&D produces criminal outcomes. Instead, they treat their own felonious behavior like it is an uncontrollable act of God. From Greg Brockman's po…

Americans always frothing at the mouth to invoke the justice system and jail someone. There’s almost 0 chance they’d secure any conviction from this.

> Americans always frothing at the mouth to invoke the justice system and jail someone

Your phrasing makes it seem like that's a bad thing. Americans are bombarded by a firehose of headlines about Big XYZ doing all kinds of blatantly illegal or harmful things, but never get any sort of meaningful resolution before the next terrible thing takes it's place in the news cycle. I'll admit, there are a few people that I am personally wishing a modicum of health so that they live long enough to get some sort of public shame and justice - if only to show the rest of us that it's not a completely rigged system.

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