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The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

theguardian.com

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Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#101

Post by gruez »

kej wrote: post #92
gruez wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpo...

I'm sure POSIWID gets used as a reductive way to avoid thinking through things, but his examples seem just as devoid of thought. His 67% cancer center could probably cure more cancers if society invested more in cancer treatments and research, or if doctors persisted in continuing treatment instead of palliative care more often. Russia could nuke Kiev, or Ukraine's Western allies could send their own troops to push R…

>but his examples seem just as devoid of thought. His 67% cancer center could probably cure more cancers if society invested more in cancer treatments and research, or if doctors persisted in continuing treatment instead of palliative care more often. Russia could nuke Kiev, or Ukraine's Western allies could send their own troops to push Russia back. The New York bus system could convert to all electric vehicles but that would cost a lot and have its own environmental considerations.

Right, but the original claim wasn't "the purpose of a system is what it can accomplish subject to the political and economic constraints placed on it", it's just "the purpose of the system is what it does".

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#102

Post by gamblor956 »

gruez wrote: post #36
burger_moon wrote: post #28

He's also making it difficult/impossible for people without work visas to obtain auto loans which is destroying the used car market in latino communities and cities with large latino populations. Executive Order 14406 defends this with, > Low-dollar cross-border funds transfers have been used to facilitate or commit terrorist financing, narcotics trafficking, human trafficking, and other illegal activity. They're ban…

>He's also making it difficult/impossible for people without work visas to obtain auto loans [...] >They're banging the national security drum to make it unlivable here for some. But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? As for the people who are supposed to be here, but are collateral damage (ie. "which is destroying the used car market in latino communities") should we have sympathy for people in such…

Elon Musk and Melania Trump both overstayed their visas and aren't supposed to be here. Elon is known to have violated the terms of his visa, which under the current administration's theory of immigration renders his citizenship void and requires him to be banned from the U.S. for at least 10 years.

Nobody knows what Melania was doing between the time she arrived and the time she met Trump. She only had a handful of photoshoots shortly after she arrived, and then nothing for 3-4 years until she met Trump at a social event.

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#103

Post by InitialLastName »

vorpalhex wrote: post #88
wombat-man wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's possible, but pretty difficult. There's just too much money to be made selling drugs to the US.

I am against marijuana but I think it's clear legalizing it successfully starves the cartel of a lot of drug financing (and therefore we should both legalize it and have public campaigns against using it, ala alcohol). Even the weird state based legalization has caused the cartels to pivot into things like avocado farming and mining. Drug users don't seem to be overly preoccupied with what drug they use. Probably shi…

> Drug users don't seem to be overly preoccupied with what drug they use.

What? In the case of opiates (which is the most significant drug problem we have at the moment), users are often physically addicted to a specific substance and that addiction was often initiated by legitimate medical usage of that substance. They'll certainly care if you say "hey, you can't use heroin any more, have some weed instead".

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#104

Post by alistairSH »

gruez wrote: post #90
alistairSH wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things.

>Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49260422 >We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things. So if the city/state/federal government lets a drug addict/d…

The GOP has used immigration as a drum to beat since I became politically aware back in the Bill Clinton days. They've had numerous chances since then to fix immigration in one way or another, but they have not done so. They make a lot of noise. They build a few miles of fence. But, mostly they keep the system the same. Because they NEED that drum to beat.

Not remotely the same thing as Ukraine's army being stuck in a war they cannot win. Or whatever other not-quite-apt comparisons you want to make.

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#105

Post by sherburt3 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #97
sherburt3 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That already happened: https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/politics/mar-a-lago-search-wa...

No, they used the existing system of due process to investigate whether crimes were committed at Mar-a-Lago. They didn't claim national security to shut it down.

Oh ok you want the government to create an extrajudicial process to punish political opponents. Sounds kinda like Facism.

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#106

Post by palmotea »

Ekaros wrote: post #79
palmotea wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just pointing out the double standards and the main funding source being due to illegality. And we all known how many people die due to ethanol each year. But because it is drug of the choice by too many totalitarian fascists it won't get banned like other drugs do. Alcohol is a drug with a huge amount of cultural significance going back millennia. Don't be a robot: it's in a different category and not a double sta…

So it clearly is double-standard. Excusing it with "cultural significance" is clear example of something being double standard. And it is one of the worst reasons to have. Genital mutilation of children of both genders is also of "cultural significance" so I take those supporting allowing it are also reasonable? Or is that a different category because it is not your culture? If keeping it illegal is not working clear…

> So it clearly is double-standard. Excusing it with "cultural significance" is clear example of something being double standard. And it is one of the worst reasons to have. Genital mutilation of children of both genders is also of "cultural significance" so I take those supporting allowing it are also reasonable? Or is that a different category because it is not your culture?

No. Frankly, it just means you're being zealous and small-minded: hyper-focusing on little bits (and feeling very self-righteous as a result) without looking at the whole picture. Demanding the world conform to whatever limited understanding you have of it. I see it all the time.

Alcohol is its own category, whether you chose to recognize it or not. That's the truth, so quit whining about it.

> If keeping it illegal is not working clearly best move forward might be to look at making it legal thus solving the issue. And that does not miss a point. Lot of stuff previously illegal has been made legal. So why not drugs like fentanyl?

Because it opiates being legal and freely available was not working? Ignoring your myopia for a minute, what you're really advocating for is a dumb oscillation between the problems of legalized opiates and illegal opiates, because you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#107

Post by maxerickson »

gruez wrote: post #49
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything else aside, > "people without work visas" is not the same legal category as > "they're not supposed to be here"

1. So you'd agree that AI datecenter with 100 (or whatever) jet turbines merely "lacks a permit" rather than "not supposed to be there"? 2. Practically speaking, how many people lack a work visa (or similar documentation), but are supposed to be here?

It's borders that aren't supposed to be there, not people.

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#109

Post by vorpalhex »

InitialLastName wrote: post #103
vorpalhex wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am against marijuana but I think it's clear legalizing it successfully starves the cartel of a lot of drug financing (and therefore we should both legalize it and have public campaigns against using it, ala alcohol). Even the weird state based legalization has caused the cartels to pivot into things like avocado farming and mining. Drug users don't seem to be overly preoccupied with what drug they use. Probably shi…

> Drug users don't seem to be overly preoccupied with what drug they use. What? In the case of opiates (which is the most significant drug problem we have at the moment), users are often physically addicted to a specific substance and that addiction was often initiated by legitimate medical usage of that substance. They'll certainly care if you say "hey, you can't use heroin any more, have some weed instead".

The medical pipeline for opiate addiction has been gone for several years now.

Most users were exposed to fentanyl unknowingly through buying other tainted drugs, often expecting percocet or even ecstasy.

Some of these users do require methodone treatment, but you can't give drug users unregulated access to opiates. That is just not gonna work out. Either they are going to self taper ("stretching" their tail of their stash) or they are going to end up in a hospital and get tapered by a professional.

Re: The US tried to stop cartel money-laundering; devastated mom-and-pop businesses

#110

Post by vorpalhex »

driverdan wrote: post #84
vorpalhex wrote: post #40

It surprises me how much Americans don't understand how deeply the cartel is in every transaction. Yes, sending money to Grandma to pay for a car is funding the cartel who probably got paid to make the car available. Grandma may even pay small direct bribes to the cartel just to be able to live her life. Either all of Mexico can move to the US (probably not a winning solution) or we can make Mexico a safe and excelle…

What you're suggesting is that all Mexicans suffer more because some money may somehow end up in the hands of the cartel. And that, for some reason, the US should help do this. That's absurd. If you really want to eliminate the cartels make recreational drugs legal.

You give your sister $100. You find out later that she uses $50 of that money to buy heroin and inject it in herself.

Do you keep giving her the $100?

Absolutely not! This isn't even a real question.

If you directly enable a person or group of people or country to harm themselves and others, you have a duty to stop doing it.

If US remittances are directly fueling the cartel which beats, rapes, murders and even engages in torture, then not only may the US cease that but it is plainly ethically bound to do so.

Yes, this will make it hard for Grandma to buy a car.

You can't fund the people who torture and rape random Mexican farmers so Grandma can buy a car.

> If you really want to eliminate the cartels make recreational drugs legal.

While murdering drug users with their own money may seem like a clever solution, you are in fact still doing murder just in long form.

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