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Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

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Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#101

Post by budsniffer952 »

ajb wrote: post #66
HexPhantom wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd expect the standard OTC dose to be a sensible starting point, not potentially several times more than a younger person needs

There is a rumour that the high doses are because the correct dose was under patent. I can only find that in a comment here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... but I could have sworn it was in the main article when I first read it. (If so that makes it less likely, because the author revises his articles for correctness) That (albeit long) article is worth reading. For example, it explain…

That's not a "rumour", it's conspiracy theory. Because everything is a conspiracy theory now.

No, the dosage is not patented. It doesn't even make sense. How would it work? "Oh, 0.5mg is patented, so let's put 1mg in the tablets and never sell 0.5mg".

I can get all kinds of dosages from the pharmacy. However, most of what they stock is "too high", probably because there's very little research/wisdom/knowledge around the supplement.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#102

Post by nerdsniper »

gleenn wrote: post #28
wincy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take 300mcg when I’m having a hard time getting to sleep or if I’ve had a lot of caffeine. Mostly because Scott Alexander told me to.

I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?

Vitamin B12 supplements can be found in a range covering about 4 orders of magnitude. The RDA is 2.4 ug/day and the Costco daily multivitamin provides 6mcg, but here is someone selling 10,000 ug supplements: https://www.hartzells.com/b-12-10000mcg-90960

It's easy to find any other order of magnitude between those if you like. A half-pound of beef liver would give you about 186 ug.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#103

Post by rusk »

budsniffer952 wrote: post #100
mettamage wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to the Netherlands, to the Kruidvat (or Etos or something similar) and just buy a lifetime worth of supply of Melatonin. It's 0.1 mg. I'm Dutch and live here. But my wife is American. If I ever happen to live in the US (chances are there in my lifetime). I'm going to employ this strategy. I don't trust the US with this and the Netherlands has proven itself to me in this sense. There are probably many more European…

[flagged]

Pharma and Healthcare was the implication I believe. The US approach to these things has a bad reputation internationally though I am informed that it’s an amazing system if you’re rich.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#104

Post by gruturo »

HexPhantom wrote: post #38
hinkley wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long ago when I paid attention to this, the wisdom was to watch out because most melatonin pills are targeted to geriatric patients. Old folks need a significant boost to their melatonin to deal with eroding sleep quality, not a little hit of it. So as a 30 year old or younger you want a fraction of what grandad is taking.

You'd expect the standard OTC dose to be a sensible starting point, not potentially several times more than a younger person needs

For sleep aids this is often not the case. I'm in my early 50s and tried Doxylamine Succinate 2 years ago for the first time - an innocent Costco "Sleep Aid".

I was beyond groggy - quite nonfunctional - until the following afternoon and would not have trusted myself with operating a car even then.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#105

Post by toilet »

budsniffer952 wrote: post #99
mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I love that people have developed a "sleep stack" without ever even knowing if what they take is improving the effects of sleep.

People would rather get a wifi connected smart bed and track their sleep stats with a smart watch than put their phone away and read a book before bed

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#106

Post by [deleted] »

budsniffer952 wrote: post #99
mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I love that people have developed a "sleep stack" without ever even knowing if what they take is improving the effects of sleep.

[deleted]

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#107

Post by fragmede »

toilet wrote: post #105
budsniffer952 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that people have developed a "sleep stack" without ever even knowing if what they take is improving the effects of sleep.

People would rather get a wifi connected smart bed and track their sleep stats with a smart watch than put their phone away and read a book before bed

To be fair, the 8sleep is pretty nice because it heats and cools you so you get better sleep, and you can still put your phone away if you have one.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#108

Post by ventana »

jmacd wrote: post #97
ventana wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a coffee drinker, I would not agree with the "worth it" part, but I was indeed surprised to learn some time ago that a can of Diet coke contains 46 mg of caffeine, which is basically a half of espresso shot. We don't let kids drink coffee, but we let them drink coke, which just does not make any sense. Out of these two, I would assume espresso brings much less harm! Recently, I started using an app to track my…

I’m curious where you are located? I’m in Canada and I don’t think I know anyone who would let a child drink a coke. I have a 14 year old and it still isn’t something we’d offer.

California; from what I see, kids do drink soda, including coke, a lot.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#109

Post by [deleted] »

nerdsniper wrote: post #102
gleenn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?

Vitamin B12 supplements can be found in a range covering about 4 orders of magnitude. The RDA is 2.4 ug/day and the Costco daily multivitamin provides 6mcg, but here is someone selling 10,000 ug supplements: https://www.hartzells.com/b-12-10000mcg-90960 It's easy to find any other order of magnitude between those if you like. A half-pound of beef liver would give you about 186 ug.

[deleted]

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#110

Post by toilet »

johntash wrote: post #17
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #13

Not sleeping impairs my morning cognition - a lot. Melatonin is part of the rotating stacks I use to mitigate insomnia. My mornings have always been impaired, going back to pre-school. Meds don't make my mornings any worse than my baseline.

What else is part of your rotating stacks? Asking as someone who melatonin doesn't seem to help much

Doxylamine for OTC, but if you take too much it will really make you groggy the next day (other people in the thread have shared the same experience.) Zolpidem/Ambien works really really well, but it's prescription only and also addictive so doctors advise to not take it more than a few days in a row at max.
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