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So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

dynomight.net

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Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cognitive decline starts above 600 ppm according to air quality studies. According to an older, small study of short duration (Mendell and Fisk at LBNL), the results of which are heavily disputed. Since 600 ppm isn't too much higher than the current level of 400+ ppm, this study is the one most commonly cherry-picked in order to instill fear in people that climate change is getting ready to damage our brains. Just…

As far as I am aware astronauts that were experiencing concentrations above 3000 ppm for presumably weeks to months reported mental viscosity(brain fog) and headaches. A definite global health concern is the increase in blood bicarbonate levels which chronically impact available calcium and phosphorus levels. Additionally the higher CO2 levels increase plant growth which impacts the plants mineral absorption, there a…

> astronauts... reported mental viscosity(brain fog) and headaches

I can think of plenty of excellent reasons the environment in the space station would lead to physiological issues. Sleep disturbance, stress, restrictions on diet and exercise, and the many severe effects of microgravity all come to mind. Again, you have to ignore humanity's extensive experience with other high-CO2 environments like submarines in order to believe that it's a significant factor compared to those other stressors.

> A definite global health concern is the increase in blood bicarbonate levels

It's hardy definite. It's another junk-science "study" out of Australia that took two epidemiological trends (bicarbonate level and mineral levels in blood over 20 years) and tried to interpret correlation as causation. You can use this kind of data-dredging to propose correlation between all kinds of unrelated trends. I'm seeing headlines blaming climate change for the obesity epidemic, for example, and you can be sure there's a junk science study behind every headline. In this case, I'm aware of no evidence from well-controlled studies (i.e., actual science) showing a causal chain from moderately elevated CO2 to physiological mineral deficiencies in real life. Again, we have lots of long-term data from high-CO2 environments like submarines. Show me some numbers.

> higher CO2 levels increase plant growth which impacts the plants mineral absorption, there are less naturally occurring micronutrients in our crops than there used to be just 20 years ago.

More questionable headline-generating studies. Yes, isolated increases in CO2 can cause carbohydrate dilution and subsequent changes in water usage and mineral uptake, but it also universally increases plant growth, and in many plants it increases production of other phytochemical nutrients. This is an extremely complex topic, and it's reductive to the point of absurdity to blame atmospheric CO2 for trends that are overwhelmingly influenced by soil depletion, water usage, and chemical fertilization.

Think about this logically: A substantial portion of our fruits and vegetables are grown in greenhouses. In the Netherlands-- the world's second-largest food exporter-- over one-fifth of produce is grown in greenhouses. Almost all modern greenhouses employ carbon dioxide enrichment, typically doubling the level of the atmosphere. If there's a brewing crisis of CO2-induced nutrient deficiency, don't you think the climate alarmists would be warning us about greenhouses? The fact that they aren't should tell you something.

It's common for people to filter on the latest fear-mongering headlines. Maybe these things are true, but "studies" like these that appear in corporate media headlines can't tell us one way or the other.

> I could not find references to concentrated CO2 treatments

It's a young field of research to be sure, but it took me about five seconds to find a bunch of recent papers. Here's the first result google gave me:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11763298/ | Effects of Carbon Dioxide Therapy on Skin Wound Healing

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#102
post #48

(Author here) I've added the word "indoor" to the title, which will hopefully make it harder to miss that this is not about climate change or carbon sequestration.

Did you consider the alternative calculation of how many plants you need to grow to feed yourself? A few thousand potatoes growing simultaneously might do it.

That would overestimate the number you need to remove excess exhaled CO2, since you could throw out the parts you can't eat rather than letting them decay and release CO2 indoors.

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#103
post #48

(Author here) I've added the word "indoor" to the title, which will hopefully make it harder to miss that this is not about climate change or carbon sequestration.

It's an interesting article overall, but this assertion:

> Carbon dioxide is bad for cognition.

is dubious and unsupported by science. As I point out downthread, we have extensive experience with very high-CO2 environments-- at levels regularly exceeding ten or twenty times current atmospheric levels-- and as yet little good evidence of uncompensated cognitive effects.

Beyond that, modern humans live much of our lives in moderately elevated CO2 with no apparent ill effect. Without deliberate ventilation, any enclosed space like a bedroom or classroom will rapidly achieve elevated CO2 levels, often into the thousand ppm range. Again, we have lots of data, and little of it points to a practical cognitive effect.

The US Navy maintain an informal goal to keep levels on board submarines to below 8000 ppm, loosely informed by what little evidence they have of its effects on crew performance. That's twenty times the current atmospheric levels. In practice, CO2 levels often go over 10,000 ppm, which apparently still doesn't cause them much concern.

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I am aware astronauts that were experiencing concentrations above 3000 ppm for presumably weeks to months reported mental viscosity(brain fog) and headaches. A definite global health concern is the increase in blood bicarbonate levels which chronically impact available calcium and phosphorus levels. Additionally the higher CO2 levels increase plant growth which impacts the plants mineral absorption, there a…

> astronauts... reported mental viscosity(brain fog) and headaches I can think of plenty of excellent reasons the environment in the space station would lead to physiological issues. Sleep disturbance, stress, restrictions on diet and exercise, and the many severe effects of microgravity all come to mind. Again, you have to ignore humanity's extensive experience with other high-CO2 environments like submarines in ord…

I am noticing a pattern where studies are dismissed as junk based on preformed opinions, specifically about "climate alarmists" you should consider why you are so quick to dismiss the majority of the research in indoor air quality.

There is one notable study about submariners that did not find impairment in one simulation, the consensus about it is selection bias and training. Submariners are not the average population, both in terms of general fitness and in terms of self selecting, people who can't cope or perform in the high CO2 environment quit or fail. The finding of other studies is brain fog not total incompetence.

> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11763298/ | Effects of Carbon Dioxide Therapy on Skin Wound Healing

That's cool, a bit of nuance though the studies are discussing applying CO2 directly at afflicted tissue not through breathing.

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#105
The grow lights are only needed at night.

You can leverage a sunny window for free.

I would have liked a more how many plants can do it, rather than the its impossible route.

AI says a snake plant and spider plant can produce oxygen night & day. Now assume I live in a tiny hovel (kinda true) how many plants do I need for "net oxygen surplus" (?)

Apparently, AI says, high yield crops of say wheat under intense LEDs or Spirulina make for optimal oxygen producers.

So 15 m^2 of spirulina in an aquaponics garden with intense led fixtures to supplement natural light might do it.

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> astronauts... reported mental viscosity(brain fog) and headaches I can think of plenty of excellent reasons the environment in the space station would lead to physiological issues. Sleep disturbance, stress, restrictions on diet and exercise, and the many severe effects of microgravity all come to mind. Again, you have to ignore humanity's extensive experience with other high-CO2 environments like submarines in ord…

I am noticing a pattern where studies are dismissed as junk based on preformed opinions, specifically about "climate alarmists" you should consider why you are so quick to dismiss the majority of the research in indoor air quality. There is one notable study about submariners that did not find impairment in one simulation, the consensus about it is selection bias and training. Submariners are not the average populati…

No, I pointed out specific flaws in those papers. You're just pretending that I'm dismissing them out of hand so you don't have to read them yourself.

Once again, the Australian study that's the source of your original assertion was very small (n=4 in each study group) and very short term (only a few hours of study time). And the paper about bicarbonate levels is a great example of data dredging, where coincident trends are implied to be causative with no further support.

I'm not saying the conclusions are wrong. They could both be right. I'm just saying that their methods are too poor to draw any useful conclusions.

> people who can't cope or perform in the high CO2 environment quit or fail

So here you are dismissing evidence out of hand by pretending not to understand it. Even if submariners are selected based on CO2 tolerance (which is silly), it wouldn't matter. The point is that the US Navy has had a large population to study for long periods of time in highly controlled environments. The same men can be examined before, during, and after exposure to very high concentrations of CO2, while other environmental variables are held constant, and the navies of multiple countries have data from many such populations over decades. That's what produces useful data, in contrast to that tiny, short Australian study you seem to be attached to.

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#107
post #48

(Author here) I've added the word "indoor" to the title, which will hopefully make it harder to miss that this is not about climate change or carbon sequestration.

It's an interesting article overall, but this assertion: > Carbon dioxide is bad for cognition. is dubious and unsupported by science. As I point out downthread, we have extensive experience with very high-CO2 environments-- at levels regularly exceeding ten or twenty times current atmospheric levels-- and as yet little good evidence of uncompensated cognitive effects. Beyond that, modern humans live much of our live…

There's definitely quite a lot of scientific support, e.g. see this review paper: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.envint.2018.08.059

I'm open to the possibility that this is wrong, but as far as I can tell, the conventional scientific view is that high-CO2 environments are somewhat bad (although not catastrophic, even at 8000 ppm).

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting article overall, but this assertion: > Carbon dioxide is bad for cognition. is dubious and unsupported by science. As I point out downthread, we have extensive experience with very high-CO2 environments-- at levels regularly exceeding ten or twenty times current atmospheric levels-- and as yet little good evidence of uncompensated cognitive effects. Beyond that, modern humans live much of our live…

There's definitely quite a lot of scientific support, e.g. see this review paper: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.envint.2018.08.059 I'm open to the possibility that this is wrong, but as far as I can tell, the conventional scientific view is that high-CO2 environments are somewhat bad (although not catastrophic, even at 8000 ppm).

This looks like a good review, and it definitely pertains to your effort here. Although the authors play up the positivity of their conclusions a bit (which is useful if they want to continue the research), they are also honest about the limitations of the material they cite. Many positive correlations are cited, but nearly every paragraph is laden with caveats. Here are a few pulled at random:

> However, the relationship between CO2 concentrations and upper respiratory symptoms in this study was no longer statistically significant after adjusting for the number of people in the office

> A 100 ppm increase in CO2 concentration (range, 549–1318 ppm) was positively correlated with non-specific symptoms including headache and dizziness (107 participants from 11 offices) although the correlation was not significant

> Several epidemiological studies indicate a relationship between low-level exposure to CO2 and BRSs. However, BRS is possibly influenced by other comorbid indoor pollutants, including artificial volatile organic compounds (VOCs) brought into buildings or occupant-generated pollutant

> CO2 concentration at 5000 ppm had no effect on acute health symptoms (respiratory, visual and skin-related, headache, and sensory) and performance in cognitive tests (Zhang et al., 2016).

> the relationship between low-level exposure to CO2 and the reported symptoms remain inconsistent between studies

> A relationship between low-level exposure to CO2 and BRSs is therefore very complicated to prove and strength of the evidence is very limited.

My biggest issue with all of this is that we have a ton of data from very high-CO2 environments going back decades, and still very little clear evidence of negative effects. If high CO2 concentration imposes significant cognitive costs for which the human body cannot compensate after some period of time, it seems like that signal should have become clear by now.

Re: So you want to use plants to reduce CO₂

#109
post #67
post #3

Trees respire. They breath in and out . At night time, many trees emit more CO2. And trees don't exist in isolation as these napkin calculation articles consider them (spherical cows and all that). Every single tree on earth relies on mycorrhizal fungi for the vast majority of its nutrients. Fungi break things down release CO2. Most of our oxygen comes not from forest but from oceans (specifically from phytoplankton,…

it looks like i'm guilty of having never really thought and done some research about this and i'm a bit ashamed to admit i fell in this trap and used to think forests and trees are the most important pieces in the system. I don't get why media has been fixating so much on trees and forests (Amazonia!) without even mentioning ocean's role in this.

Probably because you can plant more trees but not more ocean.
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