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Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

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Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#101
post #91

Chiming in to say as the CEO of Blacksky that not only do we have an independent AT Protocol implementation in Rust ( https://github.com/blacksky-algorithms/rsky ) Not only do we run a fully independent stack ( https://docs.blacksky.community/readme/list-of-our-services ) Not only are we getting paid by other orgs to stand up independent app view servers. We also received a license from Bluesky for the atproto tradem…

> We also received a license from Bluesky for the atproto trademark. For now

Then they start calling it "buproto" or something. Firefox has a trademark too, but that didn't stop debian from distributing the same thing under the name Iceweasel...

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they didn't warn bluesky specifically. It's that they didn't warn relay operators in general. And IIRC they just needed to coordinate with a single relay operator who is reasonably trusted (ex blacksky or eurosky) but they didn't do that either. The default rate limits are quite reasonable but big launches will blow past them so you gotta coordinate with someone. And note that the relay federation/gossi…

No such problem on Mastodon/ActivityPub.

It absolutely is. Mastodon has rate limits and administrators have to manage and adjust them as necessary for their instances.

You probably just don't notice it as a user or as the operator of a small instance which to be fair is exactly the same with atproto. Users rarely notice rate limits and small operators rarely do either. It's the operators of large services that see these limits and have to coordinate with other operators.

The issue with W social is that they have a chronic inability to coordinate or play nice with anyone else in the atproto space. Rate limits aren't a problem if you are a good neighbor and you know your neighbors but frankly they just don't.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - content not in line with the political left is censored What do you mean? Individual apps can choose to censor I guess, but you can fairly trivially run an AppView with no filtering whatsoever if that's what you fancy. > - sure, you have your data in your PDS, but it is de-facto useless if the central identity server of Bluesky goes down That's not correct. You can use plc, which Bluesky operates the largest dire…

Sure you can host your PDS, but if you want to deploy your own instance like you would do with Mastodon, you need to deploy a Relay and an AppView as well. And the way the network works, you need beefy servers for that. On ActivityPub and Nostr you develop all kind of applications already, it is not only Twitter clones, but also Instagram clones, Reddit clones, on Nostr there is even the resurrected Vine ( https://ab…

The idea of an 'instance' is not really clear. If you want to run a social network on ATProto, you do need the relay and app view, and those are indeed heavy requirements, but the architecture is not the same, and it depends what you're actually trying to achieve.

If you just want to use ATProto for your own small app, there are ways to do it on more constrained hardware. The more usage it gets, the more it scales up.

> On ActivityPub and Nostr you develop all kind of applications already, it is not only Twitter clones, but also Instagram clones, Reddit clones, on Nostr there is even the resurrected Vine (https://about.divine.video/).

Same! You can explore the (unfortunately named, given the point I'm trying to make :)) 'Bluesky directory' to see apps which use ATProto: https://blueskydirectory.com

Note that most of these have nothing to do with Bluesky.

> And it is not trivial to switch from the Bluesky did:plc (which you cannot run in write-mode on your own and need to use the official Bluesky owned) to did:web, which you can run on your own

That's true, but it's not trivial to run your own Mastodon instance either...

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#104
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you will find that a lot of people find that to be a feature of the federated networks. It's how society works outside of social networks. You aren't likely to see football fans of different teams sharing pubs here in Europe. You wouldn't see judgemental people be allowed in accepting roleplaying communities and so on. Why would a network of community controlled servers be any different than this? IRC was lik…

The village idiot analogy is misguided and unnecessarily accusatory. However, I do feel internet communities were better when they were smaller due to being special interest driven and self-policing. People wore different hats according to the community they were engaging with.

You're right, landsbytosse doesn't not translate well. To be fair the literal translation is village fool, which isn't much better. It's meaning would be more along the lines of village eccentric, which could be the village idiot, but not always.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they didn't warn bluesky specifically. It's that they didn't warn relay operators in general. And IIRC they just needed to coordinate with a single relay operator who is reasonably trusted (ex blacksky or eurosky) but they didn't do that either. The default rate limits are quite reasonable but big launches will blow past them so you gotta coordinate with someone. And note that the relay federation/gossi…

No such problem on Mastodon/ActivityPub.

My Mastodon instance blocked Threads preemptively because they were afraid of the traffic driving up their hosting costs so you’re basically just very wrong or lying about this. A huge flood of incoming traffic can be hugely expensive for ActivityPub node operators. The problem of giant onboarding events is real, there’s just no default protection against them in Mastodon like there is in Bluesky, so operators either have to take matters into their own hands with defederation or risk driving their bill through the roof.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>designed it around their index as the primary means of accessing anything on the web That doesn't actually translate from the analogy though. You don't use Bluesky to access other apps' data on atproto, you use those apps . You go to https://tangled.org/ for Tangled (atproto github), you go to https://leaflet.pub/ for Leaflet (one of atproto blogging platforms), and so on. Bluesky is not a "one stop shop" for all at…

It's great that you can make your own independent apps on atproto, and you're right that I overstated the "anything on the protocol" in the analogy. Analogies are always lossy, but that was worse than necessary. But notice that what you're now arguing is not that Bluesky is equally decentralized to Mastodon as a social network, you are arguing that while Bluesky the app may be in practice highly centralized that does…

>It probably is entirely true that different apps can spin up on atproto independently

It's true, and I want to emphasize that they need nothing to do with microblogging or Bluesky posts. I think it's important to internalize this because most discussions about Mastodon are about microblogging modality. But, say, Tangled is a git hosting with social layer (issues, PRs) on atproto. So we are really comparing fundamentally different ecosystems already. Atproto is not centered around Bluesky posts or Bluesky app; it's just that Bluesky app happens to be the biggest app built on top of atproto primitives.

>This, what do you say right here, is the actual concern. This specific app (or any atproto app) appears to have significant lock-in—to the point where you identify it as "natural" that it would be so—while selling itself on decentralization.

You're starting with the Mastodon perspective of "a social network is a set of fragmented views of the network with no shared sense of identity or global aggregation/search which talk to each other" and consider it natural.

Whereas I start with the regular user's understanding of a social app — it's a place where you can come, where you can see the entire world at once, where all features (global search, recommendations, follow graph) are global by default, and where you don't "belong" to any particular community to an extent that this community can cut you off from your followers or ban you. Instead, the app is serviced by app's developers and you're at their mercy.

Now, what does atproto try to do?

From the user's point of view, it looks as the familiar "centralized" approach — apps can have global search, recommendation algorithms, there's no fragmentation. Each app is a prism over the entire network and always shows a consistent view over it. App developers do have full control over how the app presents it. There aren't 100 copies of the same app because there are 100 communities on it. This split into instances is a "Mastodon-brained" way of thinking.

However, the underlying data lives in an app-agnostic layer. So Blacksky was able to kickstart their own projection of atproto network (filtered down to Bluesky stuff since their app is initially a clone of Bluesky). It's not an easy job to make it work for billions of posts, but no Mastodon instance even tries to support that scale. Atproto makes supporting that scale possible, and then we say "oh but this is expensive". Of course it is — it's expensive to store content from millions of people with any technology. But unlike centralized services (which atproto tries to match in baseline UX expectations), it is possible to spin up alternative projections of the same network that fully participate in it, when folks have concrete reasons to do so. (For example, Blacksky is able to take different moderation decisions as a result.)

You can go further. https://reddwarf.app/ is a working app displaying Bluesky data that does not have a backend at all and does not use Bluesky (or Blacksky) API servers. Instead, it loads data directly from the hosting layer, and uses https://constellation.microcosm.blue/ network index for querying relationships (like "give me a list of likes for this post"). This is less efficient than maintaining an index (so it loads a bit slower) but it's totally a workable model. The Constellation index itself, if I'm not mistaken, runs on someone's Raspberry Pi.

Of course, you can also "scale down" atproto to make it apples-to-apples with Mastodon. You'd add some code that filters down events only to those that are "relevant" to people who are "on" your "server" and their follows. This would be a "small world" atproto that would be easy for anyone to spin up. It's not very exciting but I guess we'll see more experiments in that area as people realize it is possible. But it's also just less exciting because you can also run the real thing if you're motivated enough. And the fact that anyone can choose to do it if there's a real need means people don't create a 1000 of shallow Bluesky clones. It just doesn't solve any actual problems other than trying to win arguments like this.

I don't think "decentralization" is a super useful prism to think about atproto. Atproto is a high scale syndication protocol, like typed signed RSS via HTTP and WebSockets with a shared data model and identity upstreamed into the web. This protocol enables independent apps, independent hosting providers, and independent caches and relays to build and participate in a shared ecosystem. That ecosystem lives on the web, so it's "decentralized" in the same sense that web itself is. But it doesn't mean that each product must be split into a thousand pieces at the UX level.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#107
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wsocial turned out to be a WEF honeypot or something.

That is not the point. The point is that without talking with Bluesky, you cannot start your own ATProto product or you'll get throttled from the network.

Tons of people have started products without issue. But if you flood a popular relay with data that exceeds its rate limit then getting throttled is to be expected. This doesn’t prevent your participation in the protocol or network.

There are other relays and indexes out there that may have different rate limits. That’s just how these things work. The data from W is still there on their PDS, still public, still crawlable, and able to be backfilled within rate limits.

This is a non-issue.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of this comment is an engineer at Bluesky.

Are you going to write it below my every comment? I've already replied to this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48933050 . Also, I don't think either claim in my reply is dependent on who wrote it. You can trivially verify them yourself.

It's relevant, disclosure is a sign trust and failure to disclose past relations breaks that trust.

Re: Bluesky Trademarks ATProto

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - content not in line with the political left is censored What do you mean? Individual apps can choose to censor I guess, but you can fairly trivially run an AppView with no filtering whatsoever if that's what you fancy. > - sure, you have your data in your PDS, but it is de-facto useless if the central identity server of Bluesky goes down That's not correct. You can use plc, which Bluesky operates the largest dire…

Sure you can host your PDS, but if you want to deploy your own instance like you would do with Mastodon, you need to deploy a Relay and an AppView as well. And the way the network works, you need beefy servers for that. On ActivityPub and Nostr you develop all kind of applications already, it is not only Twitter clones, but also Instagram clones, Reddit clones, on Nostr there is even the resurrected Vine ( https://ab…

Relays are trivial to run now with changes to how syncing works a while back. AppViews are entirely up to the designer of the view. You can make it as complex and expensive or cheap and fast as you want, it’s entirely up to you. You do not have to provide the exact same functionality as Bluesky’s AppView and can basically do whatever you want.
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