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Our Amish Language

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Re: Our Amish Language

#101
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article; > The contours of Pennsylvania Dutch words are harder and sharper than English ones. It’s hard to ask for a soft favor. Difficult to communicate affection, impossible to say the word love. We have no distinct word for it. One must use the standard German liebe, obtuse and antiquated in our mouths, or succumb to English, a concession. It is a tongue of commands and directives, probing questions about…

I've often read on church in Flander "onze lieve vrouw", but I had read that there is no word in Dutch for love. Instead, one would say "ik hou van jouw" which I translate as "I'm attached to you". Could it be in Pennsylvania Dutch a similar situation, due to some lineage between the languages?

There is a word for "love" in dutch; it's the noun "liefde" (of which lieve is an adjective). However you cannot use "liefde" as a verb, hence my question if this is the case in Deitsch as they are related languages within the Germanic language family.

Usually in dutch we use "houden van" -> To hold (dearly).

But with our grammar the word "houden" may also literally mean to hold. "Ik hou een hamer vast (in mijn hand)." -> "I hold a hammer (fastened in my hand)". In dutch this is considered a different word though, as vast + houden even when written apart in a sentence is considered a compound verb vasthouden. (Like how babysitting in English is not the same verb as sitting).

In German you use the word Lieben as a verb and a noun, so in German you can say Ich liebe dich (I love you) but also like a noun "Die Liebe" (lit: the love)

In Dutch you cannot say: Ik liefde jou, in the same way in English you cannot say: I feelings you.

But you can if use the word Liefde as a noun or adjective to make it something like: - Mijn liefde is alleen voor jou. (lit: My love is only for you). (romantic) - Jij bent mijn ware liefde (lit: You are my true love). (romantic) - Mijn lieve vriend (lit: My lovely friend) (platonic or romantic) - Onze lieve vrouw (lit: Our lovely lady) (exclusively used in reference to Maria AFAIK) - Dat was lief van hem (lit: That was lovely of him). (platonic)

In contemporary Dutch, people use a lot of code switching with English words, so you could hear someone say "love you" romantically, or even just the word "love" mixed in dutch like this:

- Love you, schat (I love you honey) (lit: Love you, treasure) - Ik ben in love (I am in love)

Language purist and language prescriptive Dutch teachers do not like this and would not consider it to be correct dutch. (Which personally I think is absolutely hilarious, as dutch to me is very much a "bastard language" and the notion that we should cling prescriptively to the current version of our language as some sort of canonical form is absurd).

But that's also why I was wondering if _that_ is why the author in the original article was using Liebe instead of Liewe, as code switching with a cognate might allow the loanword to be used as a "verb" while the original word cannot be as it is in contemporary dutch with Liefde/Love. (And I doubt the author would not be aware that Liebe could become something like Liewe in Deitsch as the B in standard high German words when near the end of a word often shifts in dialects and related languages).

Gelb (SHG) -> Geel (NL) Dieb (SHG)-> Dief (NL) Lieb (SHG) -> Lief (NL)

Re: Our Amish Language

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fancy” is has a very specific meaning as as opposed to “plain” here and “upper class people are also fancy” is not generally true. “Plain” refers very specifically to lifestyle rules and modes of dress and sometimes speech adopted by conservative Anabaptists, most notably Amish, and historically, Quakers (very few of whom are meaningfully plain anymore although “simplicity” is still taught as a Quaker value). It has…

Closely related, and not limited to the sects which you mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement

They may have some theological distinctions but they aren’t related to the plain/fancy distinctions at all. Holiness/methodists are culturally extremely mainstream and Methodists have always been at the forefront of uniting church with “popular” worldly culture, as opposed to the separatism (in particular of culture down to dress and technology) of plain people. Holiness/Wesleyan people are “fancy.” So are almost all contemporary Quakers and many or most mainline Mennonites.

Re: Our Amish Language

#103

I've had a bit of fun working with low resource languages (aboriginal australian), and enjoying the result from Facebook's No Language Left Behind project -> https://huggingface.co/facebook/nllb-200-distilled-600M I'd recommend giving it a squiz. (I assume Amish has a large corpus)

Since I got downvoted merely for asking: apparently, "squiz" is Australian/NZ slang for a glance or quick look. I honestly didn't know there were any Amish down under.

Re: Our Amish Language

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the Order, as in community sharing/following a set of rules

As in understand it, the Ordnung are the rules themselves, but the rules are what create the community. They aren’t written down but they are collectively decided and determined and known within an individual district. Districts normally split due to growth rather than disagreements about the Ordnung but both can happen, and the Ordnung can develop differently from one district to another. An individual or family ope…

Thank you!

Re: Our Amish Language

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasidim go to school in Yiddish for up to 12 hours a day through 12 grade and their secular and English education ends in 8th grade and is afterward taught exclusively in Yiddish with a side of Hebrew. After 12th grade many men continue to study Torah and Talmud all day for many years with rabbis doing so all their lives. The Talmud is in Aramaic and Hebrew but instruction, conversation and writing about it is conduc…

> In short there is no opening whatsoever for Pennsylvania German to become a written living literary language. I wasn’t talking about it becoming a “literary” language Consider this website - https://www.ujcbg.org/ - it is in Yiddish, but there is nothing “literary” about it, it is simply a news source for the Hasidic community of South Blooming Grove (village next door to Kiryas Joel). It contains articles on topic…

I'm the author of the article. I also disagree there's "no opening" for it to become written. "literary" is indeed maybe a step further than I'm looking right now, but I'm involved in efforts to spread the word about the standard orthographies that do exist but have just been siloed in random dusty academic places. Just because there hasn't been extensive writing so far does not mean it can't happen. It may be difficult and I don't have my hopes up that it will be ubiquitous or fast, but I think change is certainly possible here.

Re: Our Amish Language

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"anecdote" is the word you are looking for - which means based only on personal stories and not systematic research.

Yes, and 99.9% of human discourse is anecdotal - as is the article this thread is based upon. "Anecdotal" is not synonomous with "incorrect".

And 0% of human systematic research considers "anecdotal" of any value at all lol. What is your overall point? That personal experiences you had are more important than rigorous scientific research? Lol
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