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Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

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Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#101

Post by temphn »

[deleted] wrote: post #95
temphn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it is possible to believe both that Tesla is a great company and that Romney was generally right in that many of the green investments have indeed been losers (Solyndra, A123, Beacon Power, Abound Solar, ...). Lest we forget, Romney is/was a pretty great investor and entrepreneur himself, just like Elon Musk. It's unfortunate that Romney included Tesla in his list of green losers - he did start this fig…

[deleted]

Romney founded Bain; I think most would argue that makes him an entrepreneur, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain_Capital#1984_founding_and_...

Regarding the clean energy investments, I think we will both see qualitative aspects of this differently. I don't think you dispute that $90B was spent on green energy, and there were several very high profile busts; similarly I don't dispute that most of those companies are still going concerns, or many of the points in that link.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#102

Post by stcredzero »

iyulaev wrote: post #49
alxndr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the big automakers ... could easily come in and be 10 steps ahead of Tesla and provide a vehicle that isn't as sexy but has the same appeal to the electric car market" Aren't they already trying to do that? Chevy's Volt, Nissan's Leaf, Ford apparently makes a fully PEV Focus now, as does Honda with a version of the Fit, and Toyota's gotta be working on the Prius...

This +1 What Tesla has done is made an electric car and marketed it as more luxurious and different from what's on the market. The Leaf is for hippies, the Volt is nowhere to be seen. The Tesla on the other hand is sexy. A bigger concern is how Tesla will expand from this market. For most manufacturers, the high-end cars are not the major money-makers, and the quantities they move are just too small (Lexus sells over…

The Tesla on the other hand is sexy. A bigger concern is how Tesla will expand from this market.

The Nissan Leaf just isn't a good deal. If Tesla can beat range anxiety in a package that costs $20k or less, then they'll have a winner. Sexy still sells with econobox cars. (Fiat 500?)

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#103

Post by dave1619 »

el_cuadrado wrote: post #94
dave1619 wrote: post #86

Tesla Motors is in great shape. I've been following the company for a while and recently drove the Model S. Amazing car in almost every way. What struck me was that it's not an incremental improvement but really a radical (might I say disruptive) improvement in terms of ride quality (super quiet), handling (low center of gravity with skateboard powertrain), electronics (17" touchscreen), cargo space (heard of the fru…

This is assuming BMW et all stop any innovation. But they won't. They will offer an electric vehicle the moment it becomes feasible (and I am sorry but 200 miles range is still an exciting and expensive toy).

BMW will surely innovate in some regards, no question. But the real issue is if they can keep up with Tesla and disrupt their own 3 Series market. BMW is likely not to release or innovate on a new product that will cannibalize their main source of income (3 series sales). They're probably incrementally try to improve the 3 Series. And they'll release sub-par electric cars like the i3 and i8 (http://www.bmw-i-usa.com/en_us/bmw-i3/) that won't hurt 3 Series sales.

What BMW doesn't see is that Tesla is gunning for the 3 Series market with the GenIII car. Tesla is confident they can make a substantially better car than the 3 series (or Lexus IS, Audi A4, etc) in most regards and make it priced competitively. I don't think BMW is taking Tesla seriously... they're more focused on existing competitors.

If Tesla succeeds in making a substantially better car than the 3 Series that's priced competitively, then everybody in that market (BMW 3 Series, Mercedes C, Lexus IS, Audi4, etc.) will be in catch up mode. And that will the story of the decade in the car industry... how a scrappy Silicon Valley startup did the impossible to the auto industry.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#104

Post by fghh45sdfhr3 »

dave1619 wrote: post #103
el_cuadrado wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is assuming BMW et all stop any innovation. But they won't. They will offer an electric vehicle the moment it becomes feasible (and I am sorry but 200 miles range is still an exciting and expensive toy).

BMW will surely innovate in some regards, no question. But the real issue is if they can keep up with Tesla and disrupt their own 3 Series market. BMW is likely not to release or innovate on a new product that will cannibalize their main source of income (3 series sales). They're probably incrementally try to improve the 3 Series. And they'll release sub-par electric cars like the i3 and i8 ( http://www.bmw-i-usa.com…

The fact that most of the time market leaders resist cannibalizing the main source of their income is well known. The reasons are complex and connected to the nature of large human organizations. And it is also why most truly disruptive innovation is driven by smaller companies.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#105

Post by temp453463343 »

dave1619 wrote: post #86

Tesla Motors is in great shape. I've been following the company for a while and recently drove the Model S. Amazing car in almost every way. What struck me was that it's not an incremental improvement but really a radical (might I say disruptive) improvement in terms of ride quality (super quiet), handling (low center of gravity with skateboard powertrain), electronics (17" touchscreen), cargo space (heard of the fru…

I think it's a bit of a shame that they're playing the game on the same terms as the other car companies. You're absolutely right that each model seems to target a particular "class" of cars.

I think a little more adventurous designs would have been great. For instance I think it would have been perfect if they made a Tesla land-yacht in the style of 70's cars. Big, heavy (lots of room for extra batteries), nice cushy suspension, lots of power, a super comfortable ride.

Disclaimer: proud owner of a 86 Crown Vic.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#106

Post by Retric »

dkokelley wrote: post #81
Retric wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments have been involved in 'public works' for at least the last 10,000 years. Without it you end up with a weaker society with a weaker military which is then easy pray to invaders. It may have started out as roads, bridges, defensive structures, and irrigation systems. But the CDC is well within that domain.

I agree that the CDC is a legitimate example of something that only government can afford to offer. But we can have a government without the CDC. We can have government without welfare or social security. We can take many things away from government and still call it a government. Taking this to its extreme, if we remove the social order provided by police or the sovereign protection provided by military, laws and bo…

You can have minimal governments, and going in that direction often seems like the right choice. Like most people I would be happy to cut 50% of all government spending, the problem is we don't want to cut the same 50%.

Take the US government remove the Air-force and you still have a functional government. In fact, we would still have the largest and most powerful Air force due to the Navy. But, that does not mean the Air force is worthless or even that taken in it's entirety it's a waste of money. And a lot of people want the Airforce which in a democracy means a great deal.

The real question is not how you can make a smaller government, but how you can have a better society and those are not always the same thing.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#107

Post by [deleted] »

jbooth wrote: post #47
thematt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a third option? The government doesn't bet on anybody and let's the market sort out the winners.

Well, they've already built an interstate highway system and the US state dept and military are already going to bat for us worldwide ensuring access to oil. But yeah. THIS is the real case of the government getting too involved in the market.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#108

Post by Jach »

temphn wrote: post #87
stephenhuey wrote: post #5

Great news! Here's hoping they're able to place superchargers across the country within a year as planned. As much as one part of me wants to see Elon Musk succeed just to prove Romney wrong for calling Tesla a loser, it's more important to see Tesla do well for the benefits we may reap from companies like this trying to make better solutions and provide excellent competition to the status quo. That being said, I'm f…

I would argue it is possible to believe both that Tesla is a great company and that Romney was generally right in that many of the green investments have indeed been losers (Solyndra, A123, Beacon Power, Abound Solar, ...). Lest we forget, Romney is/was a pretty great investor and entrepreneur himself, just like Elon Musk. It's unfortunate that Romney included Tesla in his list of green losers - he did start this fig…

I've heard two lines of reasoning used to justify those and similar expenses:

1. The government, which can be considered as a sovereign corporation, has a moral obligation to run at a loss because certain ventures are "inherently unprofitable"

2. If Tesla is a big success, the tax revenues from the increased capital in the market (directly from Tesla itself but also all the things it influences) will pay for the losses in the loans to other companies.

I don't particularly fancy Argument 1, but do you think Argument 2 holds any water? If Tesla pays back their loan and the others you mentioned are total washes, it's "only" about $1bn, what do you think about how hard is it realistically to make that back? Tesla already has a multi-billion dollar market cap and is looking to grow.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#109

Post by codex »

This is good news, but being cash flow positive over a week is not really an impressive achievement. It's easy enough to game this milestone by rescheduling payments, if they chose to do that.

Even if they didn't, it's such a short time frame it's hard to measure anything because there's so much noise. Will they announce full profitability over a 24 hour period in Elon's next tweet? One hour?

That said, I'm impressed with the early reviews of the car, if not by the massive amount of cash that Tesla lost in the past year.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#110

Post by codex »

This is good news, but being cash flow positive over a week is not really an impressive achievement. It's easy enough to game this milestone by rescheduling payments, if they chose to do that.

Even if they didn't, it's such a short time frame it's hard to measure anything because there's so much noise. Will they announce full profitability over a 24 hour period in Elon's next tweet? One hour?

That said, I'm impressed with the early reviews of the car, if not by the massive amount of cash that Tesla lost in the past year.

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