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Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

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Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#101

Post by mrtksn »

myrmidon wrote: post #82
mrtksn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in other words, if Koreans and Europeans decide not to sell their stuff to America,quits the AI race and the capitalist do something else instead? I don't think so, in the hypothetical world where Korea and Europe don't sell to US, the American money that is invested in AI will go wherever they can actually build it, the people who are using these machines to build those models are mostly immigrants anyway.

If Koreans/Europeans decide not to sell their stuff, some of the money would go into circumventing the ban: 1) This is not good for Korean/Europen sellers, because it negatively affects sales volume, and is unlikely to be compensated by margins, because a good chunk of those will go towards circumvention instead of the original seller. 2) Some more money will go towards replacing those sellers completely. This is ext…

In this new world there are more important things like nationalism, the ego of the politicians and the personal ambitions of the super rich. Bot being good idea is irrelevant.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#102

Post by tyre »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #100
tommy_axle wrote: post #2

It wouldn't be a first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAM_price_fixing_scandal

Total fines of about half a billion. Thats not nothing but it also does not seem like a real disincentive. Samsung is about to hand out ~$26B in bonuses. SK Hynix something similar-ish.

Yes, but for context Samsung is a massive chaebol. You need to compare it to the business unit in question.

It’s different to, say, Google’s vertical monopoly in advertising where that’s most of their revenue.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#104

Post by Chyzwar »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #84
zarzavat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're running a business not a charity. Their job is to manufacture what the market as a whole demands. If they can make more money making HBM than DDR4 then they have to make HBM. Why would a business go out of its way to make less money?

1. The AI bubble is an insane distortion and the gravy train isn’t going to last forever. Betting the farm on everlasting datacenter demand is myopic. 2. In a healthy, competitive market there would be smaller manufacturers that’d be happy to take up the big guys’ discarded business.

1. But it might last for at least few more years, see Nvidia 1 trillion backlog.

2. Semiconductor manufacturing is the most complex industrial process in the world. You need billions of capex and decades of experience. Even existing semi players like intel cannot switch production to memory.

China CXMT is gaing traction in DDR market. New fabs from all players wil come online in the next two years.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#105

Post by mywittyname »

Stitch4223 wrote: post #99
mywittyname wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arguments made by the Plaintiff are thoroughly convincing to me. The fact that those 8 points are not enough to convict indicate the industry is fucked. Of course the defendants didn't leave a paper trail - they've already been convicted of collusion before. It's the people and country that suffer when our government fails to ensure markets are free and fair.

If there is no agreement, then the magic term is "tacit collusion." Why not ask the same ridiculous amount of money your competitors do? People seem to be paying for it. Their fault. If suppliers have sufficiently different products, they can make some more expensive, others cheaper; on average, everybody pays more. A high barrier to entry might help such practices. That doesn't mean I'm saying this is what is happen…

We have to decide what part is damaging to society: the actual physical agreement, or the effects of the agreement?

If it's the actual physical agreement that's the problem - the system is working as intended.

But if we are looking to prevent the negative outcomes associated with price fixing and collusion, our system is failing us.

They are never going to find proof of conspiracy. The people involved covered their tracks, and doing so is trivial. So the best we can do is punish the appearance of collusion. And if the goal is to actually prevent harm to customers, that's a better solution anyway, since it encourages leaders of companies to behave in a manner that's the opposite of collusion.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#106

Post by iwontberude »

dktbs wrote: post #98
iwontberude wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deleted

Not sure I understand this statement. Apple is affected by DRAM price fixing the same as any other PC manufacturer.

Ahh you are right, not sure where I got that from…

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#107

Post by jmyeet »

Antitrust and anticompetitive behavior continue to evolve. Back when the Sherman Act was passed, we were talking about backroom deals in smoke-filled rooms. One of the more important ways of recent years is where all or most competitors in a market use the same software that outputs the same value as to what they should charge. This is effective collusion even if it isn't explicit. The goal of such software is to raise prices. You raise prices by effectively or actually colluding with other market participants.

The posterchild for this is RealPage [1]. But you're going to see this pop up in every aspect of life, such as gas prices [2] and meat processing [3].

The whole thing is kind of depressing because this is what "innovation" is now: fancy ways to collude on prices.

[1]: https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-s...

[2]: https://abcnews.com/US/wireStory/ai-helping-gas-stations-col...

[3]: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-requires-a...

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#108

Post by cassianoleal »

microgpt wrote: post #75
bogwog wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to see why your argument is wrong with a simple hypothetical: what if they were still making DDR4 today? Would people still buy it? The answer is an obvious "fuck yeah", even if you ignore the DDR5 price gouging. People will buy it because people still have DDR4 hardware, and that hardware is still extremely relevant. So if there's a market for it, but none of the suppliers are trying to sell to it... Wtf i…

Basic capitalism logic is that if you think it's stupid, you put your money where your mouth is, set up a DRAM fab, and get rich.

I'll do it. Will you give me the seed money?

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#109

Post by doodlesdev »

iwontberude wrote: post #106
dktbs wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understand this statement. Apple is affected by DRAM price fixing the same as any other PC manufacturer.

Ahh you are right, not sure where I got that from…

That's incorrect. Apple purchases RAM from all of these providers to produce their unified memory. They also rely on TSMC fabs for all of the chips their memory relies on. If they haven't doubled the prices of their machines, that just goes to show how fat of a profit margin they take on everyone that buys from them...

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#110

Post by microgpt »

cassianoleal wrote: post #108
microgpt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic capitalism logic is that if you think it's stupid, you put your money where your mouth is, set up a DRAM fab, and get rich.

I'll do it. Will you give me the seed money?

No, basic capitalism logic is that you already have enough money because barriers to competition are low.
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