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China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

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Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#101

Post by cpeterso »

takluyver wrote: post #33

How well could this work? On the plus side (for plants), the Martian atmosphere is about 95% CO2. Even though the total pressure of the atmosphere is much less than our own, the partial pressure of CO2 is still about 20 times higher (erring a bit on the generous side). On the other hand, Mars is about 1.5 times as far from the sun, so the intensity of sunlight is less than half, and temperatures are correspondingly c…

I wonder what types of plants would be most amenable to growing on Mars. The environment could be simulated in greenhouses (red houses ;) on Earth to cultivate successful plants (genetically-engineered or bred the old fashioned way).

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#102

Post by anigbrowl »

blhack wrote: post #60
Synthetase wrote: post #9

It's odd that any mention of Elon Musk colonizing Mars results in rapturous worship. Other efforts, China in particular, seem to attract scorn. Especially in light of the fact that Elon Musk's original plan was to send a greenhouse with plants to Mars. Perhaps I over-estimate the HN crowd.

>Perhaps I over-estimate the HN crowd. Perhaps this has something to do with China's absolutely atrocious record regarding: 1) The environment 2) The rest of the world 3) Human rights -- Is it really that difficult to understand that some of us have the foresight to realize that China's method of interfacing with its environment is not something that we want to see tarnishing a yet-untarnished planet?

Get over yourself. The US had a terrible environmental record until recently, and most conservatives want to see the EPA abolished; the US has been at least as expansionist as China internationally, if not more so; our human rights record is also atrocious. I don't mean just in historical terms, but in the ongoing travesty that is our prison-industrial complex.

This is not to excuse China's poor record by any means, but your sanctimony is unwarranted.

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#103

Post by anigbrowl »

jlgreco wrote: post #78
angersock wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of the verdant fields that could be reduced to red dust! Truly, an environmental catastrophe. They could render the planet uninhabitable. :(

Funny, but I think the actual concerns are more along the lines of "What happens if it works?" If they accidentally unleash an Earth origin extremophile, it would have the potential to taint any any life that may already exist on Mars. This hypothetical life on Mars probably isn't of any real use to us, obviously it isn't megafauna or something, but it would be of unspeakable scientific importance. The chance to stud…

We know all that. That's why we're being cautious about exploring it now; but we should be able to get a definitive answer on the presence or absence of Martian life within a decade or two. If there is life there, we'd be better off studying it iin situ than trying to transport it back and forth.

Present or not, we need to have some kind of strategy for how to survive there on a long term basic, either for a small-scale scientific mission or on a larger scale to terraform.

Besides, there are several other places in the solar system that have the potential to host life, such as Europa. I don't want we should spend so long sitting on our hands that another generation or more has to die without seeing the human race explore further. It irritates me that it's already 40 years since the last moon landing: http://xkcd.com/893/

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#105

Post by tptacek »

anigbrowl wrote: post #102
blhack wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps I over-estimate the HN crowd. Perhaps this has something to do with China's absolutely atrocious record regarding: 1) The environment 2) The rest of the world 3) Human rights -- Is it really that difficult to understand that some of us have the foresight to realize that China's method of interfacing with its environment is not something that we want to see tarnishing a yet-untarnished planet?

Get over yourself. The US had a terrible environmental record until recently, and most conservatives want to see the EPA abolished; the US has been at least as expansionist as China internationally, if not more so; our human rights record is also atrocious. I don't mean just in historical terms, but in the ongoing travesty that is our prison-industrial complex. This is not to excuse China's poor record by any means,…

The human rights record of the USA is not reasonably comparable to that of China.

I basically agree that the USA shouldn't be on a high horse with China regarding environmentalism, since China is doing precisely what the USA did when it originally industrialized. That doesn't make China's environmental travesties OK, but it does rob them of some moral impact, at least from Americans.

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#106

Post by qiqing »

anthonyb wrote: post #2

As Bruce Sterling says: "I'll believe that people will colonise Mars when they start colonising the Gobi desert."

I see your skepticism, sir, and raise you the colonization of the Gobi desert with solar panels:

“It’s the Gobi Desert,” said Wang Yu, the vice director of economic planning. “There’s not much other use for it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/business/energy-environmen...

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#107

Post by rndmcnlly0 »

takluyver wrote: post #80
jws wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mars is about 1.5 times as far from the sun, so the intensity of sunlight is less than half Don't break out the nukes yet… No cloud cover is going to push up the average insolation, plus a thinner atmosphere will absorb less. Dust will bring it back down some amount. Temperature could be handled with insulation. Aerogel might be good here. A thin layer of glass sufficiently hard to survive the blowing dust and then a…

I think the light would be sufficient for plants, but I don't think insulation would be enough without a heat source. Now, you could lug loads of chemical fuel all the way from earth, or... Break out the nukes ;-)

"insolation" (think of incoming solar radiation) is distinct from "insulation"

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#108

Post by anigbrowl »

tptacek wrote: post #105
anigbrowl wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get over yourself. The US had a terrible environmental record until recently, and most conservatives want to see the EPA abolished; the US has been at least as expansionist as China internationally, if not more so; our human rights record is also atrocious. I don't mean just in historical terms, but in the ongoing travesty that is our prison-industrial complex. This is not to excuse China's poor record by any means,…

The human rights record of the USA is not reasonably comparable to that of China. I basically agree that the USA shouldn't be on a high horse with China regarding environmentalism, since China is doing precisely what the USA did when it originally industrialized. That doesn't make China's environmental travesties OK, but it does rob them of some moral impact, at least from Americans.

China doesn't have political freedoms, but our incarceration rate is about 7 times higher than theirs; indeed, the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...

I don't want to go way off-topic with this, but it's a pet issue of mine because I think it's a human-rights disaster.

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#109

Post by jlgreco »

anigbrowl wrote: post #103
jlgreco wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, but I think the actual concerns are more along the lines of "What happens if it works?" If they accidentally unleash an Earth origin extremophile, it would have the potential to taint any any life that may already exist on Mars. This hypothetical life on Mars probably isn't of any real use to us, obviously it isn't megafauna or something, but it would be of unspeakable scientific importance. The chance to stud…

We know all that. That's why we're being cautious about exploring it now; but we should be able to get a definitive answer on the presence or absence of Martian life within a decade or two. If there is life there, we'd be better off studying it i in situ than trying to transport it back and forth. Present or not, we need to have some kind of strategy for how to survive there on a long term basic, either for a small-s…

Oh certainly, I feel the same way. We are definetly going to put humans on Mars eventually, and better sooner rather than later, but I think that it is something that needs to be done with an incredible amount of caution. There are definitely concerns about contamination that need to be considered carefully when planning such missions.

Re: China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars

#110

Post by danielweber »

robryan wrote: post #99
takluyver wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're right, but I think the biggest factor is simply getting the humans there in the first place. The journey to Mars would take much longer - meaning the ship has to carry much more food, and more capacity to produce heat and regenerate oxygen. Crews do stay a few months on the ISS, but they can be resupplied from Earth.

I wonder if on a mission to mars you can place a resupply module in the right orbit to allow it to be docked with on the way to mars.

It's just ("just") a six-month trip. If you want to break things into smaller shipments, launch them directly to the Mars surface.

Even better, this means you can get a significant portion of your mission hardware (including your return vehicle) ready and waiting on the Martian surface, having survived what is probably the most dangerous part of the mission (landing) before your humans launch.

(Two year launch window gives you time to make sure everything is working, and also gives various in-situ fuel production methods a chance to run their course.)

The only real place besides the surface of either planet where you would want to "dock" with something is the orbit of either planet.

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