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Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

cleantechnica.com

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Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#101

Post by acdha »

qsera wrote: post #72
HPsquared wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, solar panels and EVs are the way of the self-sufficient rugged individualist. It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc.

>It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places…

> You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck.

I find it interesting how you’re presenting that incredibly unlikely scenario as a serious objection to an EV when simply going off the road is a once in a lifetime or less situation for most drivers, much less precisely calibrating it so your vehicle is not damaged too much to be unusable but still needed a massive amount of power to get free.

That’s an interesting counterpoint to something which happens to thousands drivers every year: having a bad storm cause them to sit in lengthy lines waiting for fuel (this was weeks the last time I was in Florida) or, in colder weather, idling through a tank of gas while stuck waiting for ice to be cleared.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#102

Post by acdha »

mercutio2 wrote: post #85
kaydub wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only had an EV 3 months now, but it'll never see a charging station. I pay around $.12/kw and get 4 miles per kw. So my "energy" costs are $.03/mile. I have a Mazda cx50 as well, it gets about 20-22mpg, with the gas prices here in Seattle that's around $.30/mile. Even where gas is cheaper that's still $.20/mile. Literally 10x the cost to run a gas car vs an EV. I'm honestly shocked at how many people have EVs an…

The pacific northwest’s vast hydro capacity makes it maximally attractive to own an EV. The rest of the country isn’t nearly so lucky.

Maybe it’s not as much cheaper but it’s cheaper than gas anywhere in the country.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#103

Post by AnimalMuppet »

bilsbie wrote: post #98
bryanlarsen wrote: post #27

The top graph makes it seem much more dramatic than it is. Maritime shipping is very efficient, and consists of a very small fraction of overall petroleum usage. Road transportation uses about 20x as much fuel as ocean shipping, planes use about 2x as much, and trains about the same amount. The typical rule of thumb is that about 40% of the energy in a barrel of petroleum is lost before it goes into your gas tank. An…

Wouldn’t water have a lot more drag than wheels?

I suspect that the GP's numbers are total, not per ton-mile of cargo (which, to my mind, makes them useless for efficiency discussions). They might make sense for discussion of the actual article, though.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#104

Post by XorNot »

elsonrodriguez wrote: post #83
qsera wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places…

If you run out of gas you’re also stuck. Only upside is that the recovery service can bring you a few gallons of fuel instead of a tow.

I somewhat suspect that's a temporary state of affairs. Nothing prevents a couple tons of batteries being put on a truck with a CCS charger to achieve the same thing.

It won't be efficient but neither is driving a few liters of fuel to someone from a gas station.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#105

Post by XorNot »

bilsbie wrote: post #98
bryanlarsen wrote: post #27

The top graph makes it seem much more dramatic than it is. Maritime shipping is very efficient, and consists of a very small fraction of overall petroleum usage. Road transportation uses about 20x as much fuel as ocean shipping, planes use about 2x as much, and trains about the same amount. The typical rule of thumb is that about 40% of the energy in a barrel of petroleum is lost before it goes into your gas tank. An…

Wouldn’t water have a lot more drag than wheels?

Yes but it's also buoyant. You can put a lot more stuff on ships, and increased inertia does offset the drag losses versus acceleration losses

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#106

Post by jwr »

mercutio2 wrote: post #85
kaydub wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only had an EV 3 months now, but it'll never see a charging station. I pay around $.12/kw and get 4 miles per kw. So my "energy" costs are $.03/mile. I have a Mazda cx50 as well, it gets about 20-22mpg, with the gas prices here in Seattle that's around $.30/mile. Even where gas is cheaper that's still $.20/mile. Literally 10x the cost to run a gas car vs an EV. I'm honestly shocked at how many people have EVs an…

The pacific northwest’s vast hydro capacity makes it maximally attractive to own an EV. The rest of the country isn’t nearly so lucky.

I'm in the EU and the factor is 3-4x.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#107

Post by [deleted] »

kleiba2 wrote: post #62
bruce511 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of EV energy (to the driver) is about half that of the cost of gas energy. And that's if you buy electricity at charging stations [1]. If you charge at home it gets less. If you have solar at home it approaches zero. Yes, the cost of the car itself is a factor, but even there prices are dropping all the time. >> when you can only take 10% as much fuel effeciency makes all the difference when we discuss % of…

Before the Iran war, I did a back of the envelope calculation for the price of gas of your average ICE for a certain fixed range vs. the price of electricity an average EV uses for the same range. This was under the assumption that you buy electricity at a random charging station that you don't have a contract with. Based on these average values I used, EVs fared slightly worse. This was not factoring in costs of pur…

[deleted]

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#108

Post by redwall_hp »

acdha wrote: post #101
qsera wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc. If there is such a marketing, then people relate to it because EVs are not suited for handling unpredictable situation. You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. So you can't take it to unforgiving places…

> You got stuck in a ditch in the middle of nowhere at night, you loss all of your battery getting out of it, and now you are stuck. I find it interesting how you’re presenting that incredibly unlikely scenario as a serious objection to an EV when simply going off the road is a once in a lifetime or less situation for most drivers, much less precisely calibrating it so your vehicle is not damaged too much to be unusa…

The EV also has a ton more torque to get out of the ditch, and can apply it at very low speeds.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#109

Post by Gibbon1 »

HPsquared wrote: post #45
bruce511 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of EV energy (to the driver) is about half that of the cost of gas energy. And that's if you buy electricity at charging stations [1]. If you charge at home it gets less. If you have solar at home it approaches zero. Yes, the cost of the car itself is a factor, but even there prices are dropping all the time. >> when you can only take 10% as much fuel effeciency makes all the difference when we discuss % of…

Indeed, solar panels and EVs are the way of the self-sufficient rugged individualist. It's an amazing PR and marketing coup to make it the other way around and presented as something for "liberal weaklings" etc.

I think 1600 watts of solar panels produces enough energy to drive an EV 12000 miles a year. Your car though would have to be always plugged in during the day. But probably 3200 watts would be enough for a car used for commuting to be charged mornings, evenings, and weekends.

Re: Fossil Fuels Are 40% of Freight Shipping Tonnage, but Half Its Fuel Use

#110

Post by redwall_hp »

kaydub wrote: post #71
kleiba2 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before the Iran war, I did a back of the envelope calculation for the price of gas of your average ICE for a certain fixed range vs. the price of electricity an average EV uses for the same range. This was under the assumption that you buy electricity at a random charging station that you don't have a contract with. Based on these average values I used, EVs fared slightly worse. This was not factoring in costs of pur…

I've only had an EV 3 months now, but it'll never see a charging station. I pay around $.12/kw and get 4 miles per kw. So my "energy" costs are $.03/mile. I have a Mazda cx50 as well, it gets about 20-22mpg, with the gas prices here in Seattle that's around $.30/mile. Even where gas is cheaper that's still $.20/mile. Literally 10x the cost to run a gas car vs an EV. I'm honestly shocked at how many people have EVs an…

More people own cars than houses. I live in an apartment, and the only ways I'd be able to charge an electric car are expensive charging stations or plugging in an extension cord, leaving a sliding door cracked all night and hoping the property's management doesn't throw a fit, pets don't sneak out, somebody doesn't break in, etc.

I've got a hybrid now, at least.

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