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Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

reuters.com

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Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#101

Post by cryo32 »

aykutseker wrote: post #80
suyavuz wrote: post #71

I think this is basically right. You don’t hand out calculators before kids understand arithmetic. LLM version is sneakier because skipping the work still produces something that looks finished.

A calculator gives you an answer. An LLM gives you an answer that sounds like it already checked itself.

Not quite. The LLM gives you a statistically probable sounding token stream. The calculator gives you a qualified answer within documented and deterministic limits of the device.

No one knows how to use either.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#102

Post by xboxnolifes »

irishcoffee wrote: post #77
simonw wrote: post #56

> Pupils from first through seventh grade, aged 6 to 13, should as a general rule not be using AI, while those in lower secondary school, aged 14 to 16, can cautiously adopt tools under teachers' supervision, the government said. Sounds right to me. Kids under 13 need to learn to read, write and comprehend text. Generative AI is not going to help them with those skills. They can play with AI at home, and after 13 the…

Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8. I don’t even like LLMs and I’m against this mess. Imagine having regulations rolled out when we were 8 saying “you can’t use the internet!” And I was running my own websites by 10 years old. Let’s stop pretending this tech is as interesting as we wish it was. If we want to ban models in school, ban laptops/chromebooks with internet. I don’t see the difference at this po…

If you think an 8 year old can comprehend text at the same level of a 13 year old (or an 18 year old for that matter), I don't know what to tell you. Reading comprehension doesn't peak at 8.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#103

Post by avaer »

ransom1538 wrote: post #51
bko wrote: post #13

Im confused, are there tasks given to 6 to 13 year old to use AI? In the classroom, are they just throwing gpt in front of them? Is that the modern equivalent of watching a vhs? Or do they have homework to vibe code something or given some prompts to ask at home and save somewhere? Serious question, what does this mean?

Teacher uses AI, creates lesson plan -> AI creates assignments -> Teacher gives assignments to students -> Students use AI to do assignment -> Teacher grades with AI -> Principal uses AI to monitor teachers progress. This is happening at schools nationwide. It is unstoppable at this point. It's a bizarre charade.

It speaks to the nonsensical structure of the education system, that it functions just fine having optimized out the education.

Nobody seems to care enough to do anything about it.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#104

Post by solid_fuel »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #86
solid_fuel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. AI has no business being used in 1:1 tutor mode before the hallucination and sycophancy issues are completely resolved. As is, I can easily see it being a hindrance to building actual understanding. Just one example - it's very common to see ChatGPT and the like respond with "you're absolutely correct! Great insight" to something that is a complete misunderstanding.

Teachers hallucinate too. I’ve had creationists and communists and tin-foil-hat (chem trails, 5g, etc) teachers. Surely you can imagine an AI tutor that is higher than zero ROI.

> I’ve had creationists and communists and tin-foil-hat (chem trails, 5g, etc) teachers.

I certainly have, too, but there is still a difference between a person who has a factually incorrect but consistent worldview and an LLM which simply reflects the worldview of the user or even changes between queries.

I don't think creationists have any business being in schools either, for what it's worth, but I think it's easier for a teenager to sort out "Mr. Smith has no clue what he's talking about" vs "I have no clue what's true because the LLM everyone expects me to learn from just confirms everything I ask regardless of what I'm asking".

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#105

Post by rootusrootus »

simonw wrote: post #92
irishcoffee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8. I don’t even like LLMs and I’m against this mess. Imagine having regulations rolled out when we were 8 saying “you can’t use the internet!” And I was running my own websites by 10 years old. Let’s stop pretending this tech is as interesting as we wish it was. If we want to ban models in school, ban laptops/chromebooks with internet. I don’t see the difference at this po…

> Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8 A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp for 2023: > Between 2017 and 2023, there were increases in the percentages of adults performing at the lowest proficiency level (Level 1 or below) in both literacy and numeracy: in literacy this percentage increased…

[flagged]

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#106

Post by throw101010 »

ransom1538 wrote: post #51
bko wrote: post #13

Im confused, are there tasks given to 6 to 13 year old to use AI? In the classroom, are they just throwing gpt in front of them? Is that the modern equivalent of watching a vhs? Or do they have homework to vibe code something or given some prompts to ask at home and save somewhere? Serious question, what does this mean?

Teacher uses AI, creates lesson plan -> AI creates assignments -> Teacher gives assignments to students -> Students use AI to do assignment -> Teacher grades with AI -> Principal uses AI to monitor teachers progress. This is happening at schools nationwide. It is unstoppable at this point. It's a bizarre charade.

You forgot the parasite companies that sit between the teachers/student/principal which pretend they detect the big bad AI assisted/generated work to punish individuals using AI (with a majority of false positives and always late by 1 generation of models). The charade wouldn't be complete without rent seeking intermediaries.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#107

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

skydhash wrote: post #74
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think so too. But we haven’t demonstrated we’ve found how, in kids or in adults. Ask chatgpt or claude, on their highest model (probably unnecessary but I'm sensing a vibe) to explain a simple linear algebra problem, and if you don't understand it, ask about what part you don't understand. And if you truly believe it made something up, prove it. This is seriously the easiest thing to prove out there, you can see f…

> to explain a simple linear algebra problem, and if you don't understand it, ask about what part you don't understand. The goal is not to understand a linear algebra problem. The goal is to learn how to solve it using lessons and techniques taught beforehand. Aka not to get a fish, but learning how to fish.

I'm sorry the wording of my post didn't match what you wanted.

Type in "Explain how to solve a simple linear algebra problem" into the AI of your choice instead.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#108

Post by beejiu »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #86
solid_fuel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. AI has no business being used in 1:1 tutor mode before the hallucination and sycophancy issues are completely resolved. As is, I can easily see it being a hindrance to building actual understanding. Just one example - it's very common to see ChatGPT and the like respond with "you're absolutely correct! Great insight" to something that is a complete misunderstanding.

Teachers hallucinate too. I’ve had creationists and communists and tin-foil-hat (chem trails, 5g, etc) teachers. Surely you can imagine an AI tutor that is higher than zero ROI.

A bit part of education is (should be) independent learning with textbooks and reading. You don't need to be "tutored".

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#109

Post by [deleted] »

bborud wrote: post #96
bebe83939 wrote: post #89

Great, yet another "no child and no teacher left behind!" I was gifted kid, bored to death at basic school. I was reading books under the table, and was lucky to have tolerant teacher. Total ban would just push me to misbehaving and disrupting the class. AI is amazing tool for learning, if Norway can not harness it, there is something deeply wrong with the educational system. Perhaps teachers unions? Norway has a big…

So I take it you have some expertise in teaching? At what level? K-12? Middle school? What, in your professional opinion as an educator, should schools do about AI in schools?

[deleted]

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#110

Post by wolvoleo »

baq wrote: post #14

AI used to write homework should be banned. AI in 1:1 tutor mode with proper hardware (live scanning pen and paper), harness and guardrails should be wildly successful (in terms of education outcomes) especially in elementary school.

I think AI should be used in higher level schools but with the added requirement that the output will be held to a much higher standard and that it's fact checked. Teach the students to use AI to reach a higher level while mitigating the inherent issues like hallucination and sycophancy.
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