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Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

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Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#101

Post by thomastjeffery »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #66
thomastjeffery wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a fantastic web series that explains the whole dynamic: the alt-right playbook. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbAN...

It’s reductive to frame this as an alt-right only phenomenon. As long as we’re subject to modern ad-fueled social media, this is the basis for all non-retail politics.

That's a reduction that isn't being made.

This is a playbook that was utilised by the alt-right first, and adopted by nearly everyone else; particularly (though not exclusively) Republicans in the US, followed by most conservative organizations around the world.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#102

Post by Retric »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #99
Retric wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements because it’s facing different pressures. Right now it’s dealing with second generation propaganda where much of the leadership believes the narrative rather than the underlying justification for that narrative. This is mitigating by the older generation retaining a great deal of power, but it creates some IMO really interesting dynamics.

> The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements Straw man. Nobody claimed this. Just that the factor identified, politics by attention economics as a result of social media, is not unique to the alt right.

> this is the basis for all non-retail politics.

My point was there’s an internal disconnect inside the alt right movement which makes this play out in very distinct ways. Dig into say China’s political to social media connections for some wildly different dynamics.

> is not unique to the alt right

Sure, that I can agree with but it’s a long way from your earlier blanket statement.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#103

Post by bryanlarsen »

chasil wrote: post #7
arjie wrote: post #6

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected. I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my p…

It erases immune memory, taking away antibodies to recently exposed diseases. It's best not to get it.

And by "it" you mean measles? Or do you mean the vaccine? Completely reverses the message of your post!

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#104

Post by ruicraveiro »

jdw64 wrote: post #14

Why do problems caused by anti scientific behavior occur in a country like the United States, which has so many outstanding scientists? From a third party perspective, I wonder if it's because, as stratification has progressed in the US, distrust of the social class that scientists belong to has led people to deny even their achievements. Why does distrust arise toward the institutions and hierarchies that speak for…

I won't answer your questions, but I think you'll find a lot of answers in Sapiens and Nexus, both books from Yuval Noah Harari. They explain a lot about the fantastic questions that you are posing.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#105

Post by ruicraveiro »

mpol wrote: post #97
jdw64 wrote: post #14

Why do problems caused by anti scientific behavior occur in a country like the United States, which has so many outstanding scientists? From a third party perspective, I wonder if it's because, as stratification has progressed in the US, distrust of the social class that scientists belong to has led people to deny even their achievements. Why does distrust arise toward the institutions and hierarchies that speak for…

In Europe we actively pushed the crazies to emigrate to the US. We had so many crazy religious people that we got tired of them. They went to the US and we thought we got rid of them, but now they are back with a vengeance.

I really can't tell if you are serious or just trolling. Assuming the latter, I'd be laughing out loud if the consequences weren't so tragic.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#106

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Retric wrote: post #102
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The alt right playbook isn’t identical to other political movements Straw man. Nobody claimed this. Just that the factor identified, politics by attention economics as a result of social media, is not unique to the alt right.

> this is the basis for all non-retail politics. My point was there’s an internal disconnect inside the alt right movement which makes this play out in very distinct ways. Dig into say China’s political to social media connections for some wildly different dynamics. > is not unique to the alt right Sure, that I can agree with but it’s a long way from your earlier blanket statement.

> Dig into say China’s political to social media connections

China regulates social media in a way we don’t. The fundamental dynamic doesn’t apply there.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#107

Post by bryanlarsen »

pavlov wrote: post #83
arjie wrote: post #6

Quite interesting to see that measles is coming back. I suppose there is a notion of generational memory. Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive unless it’s catastrophic and a measles epidemic is eminently survivable as a civilization if incredibly tragic for the families affected. I had measles as a child, too. Fortunately, my p…

> “Two generations out, people forget what the world was like. Forgetting like this on a civilizational level is probably adaptive” We are forgetting the lessons of WWII, and the world is now stocked with thousands of nuclear weapons each hundreds of times more powerful than Hiroshima. I don’t think we as a civilization can afford this kind of amnesiac adaptation anymore.

We've also lost everybody who remembers the lessons of the 30's.

There's a saying that people get more conservative as they age. But the Greatest Generation, those that experienced the 30's and WW2 tended in the opposite direction, voting more left as they aged.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#108

Post by tzs »

BurningFrog wrote: post #90

Around 20% of people have a fear of needles. Around 4% have a clinical phobia, often intense enough to induce fainting. I suspect a lot of "vaccine skepticism" is just an expression of such needle phobia. Maybe developing more needle free vaccine delivery mechanisms would solve a lot of this problem. I have much doubt about arguing people out of phobias.

I don't see any evidence that the level of fear of needles is different now from what it was 10, 20, 30 or more years ago, so it is hard to see how it could be a significant factor in falling vaccination rates now.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#109

Post by Retric »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106
Retric wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is the basis for all non-retail politics. My point was there’s an internal disconnect inside the alt right movement which makes this play out in very distinct ways. Dig into say China’s political to social media connections for some wildly different dynamics. > is not unique to the alt right Sure, that I can agree with but it’s a long way from your earlier blanket statement.

> Dig into say China’s political to social media connections China regulates social media in a way we don’t. The fundamental dynamic doesn’t apply there.

Even the US regulates social media. UK, Germany, South Africa, and Brazil are all interesting because of just how different yet similar a role social media plays in politics.

First past the post vs representative representation create some really interesting points of divergence.

Re: Measles surge in Utah sparks fears US could undo decades of progress

#110

Post by ruicraveiro »

cj wrote: post #46
jdw64 wrote: post #14

Why do problems caused by anti scientific behavior occur in a country like the United States, which has so many outstanding scientists? From a third party perspective, I wonder if it's because, as stratification has progressed in the US, distrust of the social class that scientists belong to has led people to deny even their achievements. Why does distrust arise toward the institutions and hierarchies that speak for…

I hate blaming things on social media, but I think that's at the center of it. Once you start pausing on anything related to anti-vax or anti-science, you'll start seeing more and more people talking about alternative views. And soon those alternative views are all you see, and those alternative views start feeling like mainstream views. And then you become confused when you're at a dinner party and no one agrees wit…

I don't hate putting a lot of blame on social media, just as much as I blame the tobacco companies for a lot of lung cancer. Put differently, social media companies are the tobacco companies of the mind.
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