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Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

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101–110 of 222 posts

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#101
post #41

What I still can't understand is why is massive amount of code generated is a flex? I don't feel that software has gotten a lot better in past 3 years, only sloppier. It's surprising to me that people who know about reward hacking choose a simple objective like lines of code generated as a signal for quality. I'd argue you have to optimize for less lines generated as possible while secondary optimization should be re…

Don't compare human loc with machine loc. Compare machine to machine (as these headlines come) and discount that by a factor.

You can't really do that here because one of the key arguments for this, as people in the thread focus on is "1/10th of time" estimate, the comparison with humans is here already, albeit it is just an estimate and no actual comparison has been done.

This is a problem of conflicting incentives that exists today in my opinion. Companies will market greater human-AI collaboration in science and engineering but focus on releasing things like this where it is clear that downstream goal is complete agent ownership over the product, from inception to testing to monitoring. Maybe the speculative future agents will use their own very efficient language to code that won't be readable for people at all. They focus on agent code being readable by agent in the article, as you've said. But in my mind in at least near future, there is a case where your prod will break, you won't be able to understand it or the attempted fixes. Maybe agent will fail to fix it at all and start a massive rewrite. In any case is this different from kicking technical debt down the road along with worse interpretability of what you have built?

I do think there is a way where agent can write great solid code that we can read, but with the way LLMs are built this requires something new in terms of reward that accounts for "taste" and constant refinement so it might take more than 1/10th of a time to produce something good.

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#102
post #41

What I still can't understand is why is massive amount of code generated is a flex? I don't feel that software has gotten a lot better in past 3 years, only sloppier. It's surprising to me that people who know about reward hacking choose a simple objective like lines of code generated as a signal for quality. I'd argue you have to optimize for less lines generated as possible while secondary optimization should be re…

People want to do X, so the metric is how much X can be done.

Everyone is over-complicating the explanation. The answer for "why are we fixating on this bad metric" is almost always the same pattern.

Broad audiences need simple metrics to talk about. If the metric itself requires nuance, it's hard to communicate and hard to reason about. It's easier to push the need for nuance from understanding the metric itself down the road to where the metric is applied, which allows everyone to ignore it in immediate conversation.

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#103
post #22

Codex updates usually appear every few hours (i am not saying this how often it's published) but that's my perception as a user. Often i update codex just to see new update within an hour so. Many times those updates are not properly tested, for example in one update the model selector got completely changed. then next hotfix was pushed which restored original.

Who needs a QA team when you can just test on users and iterate instantly /s

[flagged]

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#104
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "lines of code" at this point are basically the same thing as binary code that comes out of a compiler - something you almost never look at and certainly won't try to touch by hand. The actual "code" is everything driving the harness. The current problem for this is that the harness is not (yet) deterministic, so it's sort of like having a compiler where your output program works slightly differently every build,…

I think the telling part is in this line: > Because the repository is entirely agent-generated, it’s optimized first for Codex’s legibility I asked a question from a perspective of a human engineer, as in, I will have to read the code and understand, fix it once it breaks. OpenAI approach is opposite, even if it is breaking it is the agent that will be doing the fixing, millions of lines and inelegant designs don't m…

This is the part I think we will see become more relevant.

I created docs-cli (pypi) to manage the index of specs as source code: the framework that goes with it will first create tests for as much as it can, so reproducability becomes the goal, not readability.

https://github.com/ArtRichards/docs-cli

https://artrichards.github.io/agent-playbook-suite/blog/

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#105
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do quite a lot of what this post describes in a reasonably large project. Here's what works for me: - write gherkin features for new features; update them for enhancements; don't touch them for refactors. Label your PRs with these nouns. - use pre-push hooks for type checks, linting, unit tests, and other quick, scriptable validations. - make a viteperess subsite in your repo, have the agents maintain it - document…

Can you share your skill please?

That's a big ask. This kind of harness usually contains plenty of proprietary insights about their business. And also, nowadays, a good harness is a major competitive advantage.

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#106
post #41

What I still can't understand is why is massive amount of code generated is a flex? I don't feel that software has gotten a lot better in past 3 years, only sloppier. It's surprising to me that people who know about reward hacking choose a simple objective like lines of code generated as a signal for quality. I'd argue you have to optimize for less lines generated as possible while secondary optimization should be re…

I've heard it said that measuring productivity of a software developer by lines of code added, is akin to measuring the productivity of an aerospace engineer by mass added.

It is a metric. It is often not a good metric. But it is easy to measure.

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#109
post #19

digression: It's interesting this was submitted to HN over 15 times since it was published in February: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... But this is the only submission that's had any traction. Since the content is nearly the same for all submissions, it highlights how getting to the front page can be a bit random. (Though this is the only one that capitalized 'Leveraged' so maybe that'…

time of day also matters

Re: Harness engineering: Leveraging Codex in an agent-first world

#110
This matches quite verbatim for my cursor based agentic repo.

There isn't anything that were not already experienced and factored into constructs in the repo.

And I also find all of the bits created for an effective agentic engineering project, matches perfectly with the main stream engineering best practices. That has been one of my primary reason to all in on agentic engineering, prior to this, applying best practices is always too costly and conflict with teams daily priority.

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