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Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

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Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#101

Post by soraminazuki »

potsandpans wrote: post #95
elnatro wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference between programmer and engineer is that the programmer worries about what they do, while the engineer worries about not only about what they do, but about the platform their application run. And you bringing the fringe entertainers of the illiterate Americans is totally unnecessary.

You're just speaking in truisms, and still have yet to assert anything at all. You sound more like a fringe entertainer and less like an engineer. You're, "just asking questions." Are you an engineer? Make clear claims, and then back then up crisp and concrete arguments. Support your arguments with data. That's engineering. What you're doing is wallowing in the outrage machine. Please start with your indepth understa…

Practice what you preach. Because committing 1 million lines of unreviewed code is by definition not "engineering," and every single accusation you're making is the one you're guilty of.

And while you're at it, make your own argument. That's a skill required of any engineer.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#102

Post by soraminazuki »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #24
elnatro wrote: post #3

Deno was already implemented in Rust, and not done by vibe-coding. Would you trust a fully vibe-coded runtime? Not some features, not some fixes, but a full translation from one language to another.

If it has tests and responsible management, sure why not. I generally feel more comfortable if something is 1) widely used & scrutinized 2) managed competently. But that's orthogonal to how (not if) people use AI. Having good tests, reviews, etc. is much more important. Do people trust random NPMs developed by random people on the internet? Apparently we do given all the recent issues with supply chain attacks. I hav…

Tests can only catch a small subset of the possible ways things can go wrong. Our development practices still rely heavily on the authors of the code knowing what they wrote.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#103

Post by [deleted] »

soraminazuki wrote: post #101
potsandpans wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just speaking in truisms, and still have yet to assert anything at all. You sound more like a fringe entertainer and less like an engineer. You're, "just asking questions." Are you an engineer? Make clear claims, and then back then up crisp and concrete arguments. Support your arguments with data. That's engineering. What you're doing is wallowing in the outrage machine. Please start with your indepth understa…

Practice what you preach. Because committing 1 million lines of unreviewed code is by definition not "engineering," and every single accusation you're making is the one you're guilty of. And while you're at it, make your own argument. That's a skill required of any engineer.

[deleted]

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#104

Post by elnatro »

potsandpans wrote: post #95
elnatro wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference between programmer and engineer is that the programmer worries about what they do, while the engineer worries about not only about what they do, but about the platform their application run. And you bringing the fringe entertainers of the illiterate Americans is totally unnecessary.

You're just speaking in truisms, and still have yet to assert anything at all. You sound more like a fringe entertainer and less like an engineer. You're, "just asking questions." Are you an engineer? Make clear claims, and then back then up crisp and concrete arguments. Support your arguments with data. That's engineering. What you're doing is wallowing in the outrage machine. Please start with your indepth understa…

Let’s have an engineering discussion? I am not the one that brought up Tucker Carlson to the conversation.

The maintainers have merged an enormous pull request in a week. They haven’t shown signs of understanding Rust. They are doing an experiment that can affect (via runtime bugs) to all bun users.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#105

Post by potsandpans »

elnatro wrote: post #104
potsandpans wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just speaking in truisms, and still have yet to assert anything at all. You sound more like a fringe entertainer and less like an engineer. You're, "just asking questions." Are you an engineer? Make clear claims, and then back then up crisp and concrete arguments. Support your arguments with data. That's engineering. What you're doing is wallowing in the outrage machine. Please start with your indepth understa…

Let’s have an engineering discussion? I am not the one that brought up Tucker Carlson to the conversation. The maintainers have merged an enormous pull request in a week. They haven’t shown signs of understanding Rust. They are doing an experiment that can affect (via runtime bugs) to all bun users.

[flagged]

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#106

Post by elnatro »

potsandpans wrote: post #105
elnatro wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s have an engineering discussion? I am not the one that brought up Tucker Carlson to the conversation. The maintainers have merged an enormous pull request in a week. They haven’t shown signs of understanding Rust. They are doing an experiment that can affect (via runtime bugs) to all bun users.

[flagged]

I already told you two points, your rebukes are that “I’m not a software engineer”. That says more about you than about me.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#107

Post by embedding-shape »

soraminazuki wrote: post #98
embedding-shape wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that obvious? Wouldn't surprise me either, but I don't think it's obvious, unless I missed some "confession" or something.

It's 1 million LoC they merged in a week. And that's only the final state. It's going to be much, much more if you include changes in individual commits. 6,755 commits were pushed to the PR branch, including dozens that were made shortly before the branch was merged to main. There's not a chance that anyone has read the code in any significant portion, or even in the future, because people who review code don't merge…

> There's not a chance that anyone has read the code in any significant portion

Sure, but that wasn't really the question, the question was why it's obvious no-one or no-thing have closely reviewed the code? Given they use LLMs to produce the code, wouldn't surprise me if they used LLMs to review it too, and I don't see it as unfeasible to be able to review a lot of code on a lot shorter timeframe.

It's not like they're doing something unique or novel, they even had an implementation in another language they knew did the right thing, so all the review would have to do, would be to make sure it's the same in the new language.

Don't get me wrong, again, probably there is plenty of mistakes in there, and might catch on fire when run in the wrong way, but I still don't think it's obvious how they've done things, unless you have insights into their process which seems clear to me now that you don't.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#108

Post by soraminazuki »

embedding-shape wrote: post #107
soraminazuki wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 1 million LoC they merged in a week. And that's only the final state. It's going to be much, much more if you include changes in individual commits. 6,755 commits were pushed to the PR branch, including dozens that were made shortly before the branch was merged to main. There's not a chance that anyone has read the code in any significant portion, or even in the future, because people who review code don't merge…

> There's not a chance that anyone has read the code in any significant portion Sure, but that wasn't really the question, the question was why it's obvious no-one or no-thing have closely reviewed the code? Given they use LLMs to produce the code, wouldn't surprise me if they used LLMs to review it too, and I don't see it as unfeasible to be able to review a lot of code on a lot shorter timeframe. It's not like they…

It was a straight answer to a straight question:

> They obviously haven't closely reviewed the code. That's the point

You asked why.

If Bun’s maintainers truly reviewed it, they would've had to read at least 6k lines per hour for a full week without a break. No one can claim in good faith that could possibly have happened.

Bun is now a black box consisting of million lines of largely unread code. No amount of "you don't know the whole story" lawyering or endless demands for "proof" of the obvious will change that.

The scope of the issue goes far deeper than "there might be some mistakes." Because what happened with the rewrite isn't engineering. Engineering applies the scientific method and rigorous verification to real world problems. It surely isn't about trusting a digital genie's "guarantees" that "all is fine." All aspects of LLM output is undefined behavior, and Bun blindly accepted million lines of code generated from it.

Before anyone brings it up again, tests aren't a sufficient defense. They only catch a tiny subset of the infinite possible failures. Modern software development still depends on developers understanding the code they produce.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#109

Post by potsandpans »

elnatro wrote: post #106
potsandpans wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I already told you two points, your rebukes are that “I’m not a software engineer”. That says more about you than about me.

You just continue to talk with a lack of precision that is demonstrative of general unseriousness and cannot seem to cope with the idea of someone doing the same thing to you, that you are doing to other hardworking people.

I gave you the chance to rebuke essentially, "would you trust some random insinuations by a potentially unqualified person on the internet ginning up support for some thing that they do not understand?"

You will note that I have never once said that you are not a software engineer. Instead I've given you the opportunity for you to defend yourself _as_ a software engineer. And mostly commented this far that you have displayed a general lack of understanding. The arguments that you have presented lack quality and merit. The onus is on you to present the reason we should listen to whatever it is you're saying about Bun.

If you are a software engineer, you are not doing a good job of representing yourself as one. Which is what I'm asking you to do, albeit in an aggressive manner: defend your position if you feel so strongly.

It's good for upvotes on hackernews though. You don't need substance. Just ride the wave of vitriol.

Re: Bun has been converted to rust. Now what?

#110

Post by ryanshrott »

woodruffw wrote: post #37

> For scale: uv, a Rust project of broadly comparable size from the same general corner of the ecosystem, contains 73. As a point of information: uv's use of `unsafe` largely involves interactions with OS APIs that don't have safe wrappers yet (in practice, this is mostly Win32 and similar APIs). It makes sense that Bun would have more `unsafe` than uv does, insofar as it needs to interact with JavaScriptCore's C API…

OS boundary unsafe is easy to audit because it's at the edges. The problem here is 10k unsafe blocks scattered through the core - that's a different thing entirely.
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