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Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

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Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#101
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day I find myself thinking more and more that capitalism ruined the internet. The Green Card Lottery usenet spam was the clear indication of where things were going and now everything is Green Card Lottery spam.

That's the same attitude as "cheap airfares caused too many tourists which ruined my favorite tourist destination". You're unhappy that more people have access to it and wish it was still exclusive to the small group you conveniently belong to. Capitalism is what made the internet available to the general public.

Sometimes gatekeeping is a good thing. I don't mind being gatekept from some areas of life, not everything is for me. Mass tourism absolutely has made some places less pleasant to visit, and more importantly, less pleasant to live in.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#102
post #22

This is just the next phase of SEO. Maybe it'll be called AIO? Just like with search, this will be and endless struggle of Google and AI providers rolling out fixes, optimization firms finding exploits, those getting patched again, etc etc. Anything to get eyeballs for marketing.

It's not the next phase, it's the current phase.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#103

So please correct me, but was Google's AI crawling the web for information without discretion? If so, why wouldn't that totally santorum the AI answers?

All evidence points to yes, and from some of the least trustworthy sources of information on the planet [1].

[1] Glue pizza and eat rocks: Google AI search errors go viral: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd11gzejgz4o

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#104
post #69

As Google has been unable to keep spammy crap out of their search index since at least 2006 when we were doing Blekko I doubt they will have much success fighting this. But it is another good example that "AI" is just glorified search and there is not reasoning or thinking going on behind the covers.

Hmm. I don’t think that novel code generation can be accounted for with glorified search. I can have my agentic system read a few data sheets, then I explain the project requirements and have it design driver specifications, protocols, interfaces, and state machines. Taking those, develop an implementation plan. Working from that, write the skeleton of the application, then fill it in to create a functional system us…

You'd have to define 'novel code generation' and why dealing someone a poker hand they have never seen before isn't 'novel poker hand generation.' Not being snarky here, just understanding the way that LLMs work I am well aware that you can come up with things that nobody has seen before, and the 'how' is very much like the 'genetic' programming of times past.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#105
post #83

As Google has been unable to keep spammy crap out of their search index since at least 2006 when we were doing Blekko I doubt they will have much success fighting this. But it is another good example that "AI" is just glorified search and there is not reasoning or thinking going on behind the covers.

> But it is another good example that "AI" is just glorified search and there is not reasoning or thinking going on behind the covers. I don't think that follows. This is just LLMs being, for a lack of a better word, "gullible." How is it different from a person believing whatever they read on the Internet? People fall for spam and scams all the time, doesn't mean they are just glorified searches ;-) It does highligh…

Let say you are a cave dweller and lived your whole life there. I go in and tell you the world is flat and you will believe me. Only way to reject the world is flat would be to go outside of the cave.

ML cannot ever go outside the cave. It does not have real world feedback. It also does not have a will, type of feedback loop, to learn beyond what it was initially trained on.

ML / AI only has the ability to regurgitates what it has been trained on. Garbage in = garbage out. Feeding ML garbage is the real AI wars.

AI will always propitiate misinformation. They even create a marketing term to assist in the sale of lies, hallucination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cave_and_the_Light

ML can regurgitation that book and never will be able to apply it.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it different from a person believing whatever they read on the Internet? The problem is LLMs have no capacity for shame. My Dad got taken in by a Target gift card scam. He felt so terrible, he almost didn't even tell me about it. He may get scammed again, but not by anything remotely like that. To LLMs, all mistakes just get washed together into the same bucket. They don't spend days feeling depressed and st…

This is a great point. I've added it to my list of things when talking about the limitations of LLM.

Perhaps the end state is going to be from the last Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book, Mostly Harmless:

> Anything that thinks logically can be fooled by something else that thinks at least as logically as it does. The easiest way to fool a completely logical robot is to feed it with the same stimulus sequence over and over again so it gets locked in a loop. This was best demonstrated by the famous Herring Sandwich experiments conducted millennia ago at MISPWOSO (the MaxiMegalon Institute of Slowly and Painfully Working Out the Surprisingly Obvious).

> A robot was programmed to believe that it liked herring sandwiches. This was actually the most difficult part of the whole experiment. Once the robot had been programmed to believe that it liked herring sandwiches, a herring sandwich was placed in front of it. Where upon the robot thought to itself, Ah! A herring sandwich! I like herring sandwiches.

> It would then bend over and scoop up the herring sandwich in its herring sandwich scoop, and then straighten up again. Unfortunately for the robot, it was fashioned in such a way that the action of straightening up caused the herring sandwich to slip straight back off its herring sandwich scoop and fall on to the floor in front of the robot. Whereupon the robot thought to itself, Ah! A herring sandwich...etc., and repeated the same action over and over again. The only thing that prevented the herring sandwich from getting bored with the whole damn business and crawling off in search of other ways of passing the time was that the herring sandwich, being just a bit of dead fish between a couple of slices of bread, was marginally less alert to what was going on than was the robot.

> The scientists at the Institute thus discovered the driving force behind all change, development and innovation in life, which was this: herring sandwiches. They published a paper to this effect, which was widely criticised as being extremely stupid. They checked their figures and realised that what they had actually discovered was “boredom”, or rather, the practical function of boredom. In a fever of excitement they then went on to discover other emotions, Like “irritability”, “depression”, “reluctance”, “ickiness” and so on. The next big breakthrough came when they stopped using herring sandwiches, whereupon a whole welter of new emotions became suddenly available to them for study, such as “relief”, “joy”, “friskiness”, “appetite”, “satisfaction”, and most important of all, the desire for “happiness”. This was the biggest breakthrough of all.

> Vast wodges of complex computer code governing robot behaviour in all possible contingencies could be replaced very simply. All that robots needed was the capacity to be either bored or happy, and a few conditions that needed to be satisfied in order to bring those states about. They would then work the rest out for themselves.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#107
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pattern matching. A big part of reasoning for sure, but not reasoning per se

That could be, but if that is the case than development apparently doesn’t require reasoning? Or maybe that’s the part that the senior developer supervising the pipeline injects. Thats certainly a plausible position.

>but if that is the case than development apparently doesn’t require reasoning?

Certainly plenty of it does not.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point. I've added it to my list of things when talking about the limitations of LLM.

Perhaps the end state is going to be from the last Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book, Mostly Harmless : > Anything that thinks logically can be fooled by something else that thinks at least as logically as it does. The easiest way to fool a completely logical robot is to feed it with the same stimulus sequence over and over again so it gets locked in a loop. This was best demonstrated by the famous Herring Sandwi…

I love that book, that said, the point is more subtle than that. Current LLM attention models are limited in their feedback. Adding a form of 'shame' feedback (result is technically correct but morally bad or some such) would help here but I doubt the folks building theses things would choose to do so.

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#109
post #83

As Google has been unable to keep spammy crap out of their search index since at least 2006 when we were doing Blekko I doubt they will have much success fighting this. But it is another good example that "AI" is just glorified search and there is not reasoning or thinking going on behind the covers.

> But it is another good example that "AI" is just glorified search and there is not reasoning or thinking going on behind the covers. I don't think that follows. This is just LLMs being, for a lack of a better word, "gullible." How is it different from a person believing whatever they read on the Internet? People fall for spam and scams all the time, doesn't mean they are just glorified searches ;-) It does highligh…

> How is it different from a person believing whatever they read on the Internet?

It's not, directionally. But I think this is kind of bypassing the main point here.

With an LLM's natural tendency to pattern-match in this way, it's easy to see that it can be used to launder disinformation. If in the olden days, I'd done a google search for "worst war criminals" and saw these blue links on that SERP:

"Putin is the 21st century's worst war criminal" - support-ukraine.org

"Zelensky is the real worst war criminal" - publicrelations.government.ru

My takeaway would be that both those are claims made by third parties, one or both could be lying. Even if I only saw more results from one side than the other, most of us understood that the presence in search results doesn't imply Google's endorsement or prove anything besides the fact someone set up a webpage and wrote something.

In contrast, today a lot of people tend to ask ChatGPT something and if it spits back an answer they are - at minimum - being subtly biased that even though it may be in dispute, ChatGPT "agrees" with one position, and that carries at least a little authority. And at worst they wrongly assume that the "correct" answer was selected by deep intelligence, that a lot of data has been analyzed and this answer arrived at, rather than there just being one completely untrusted webpage somewhere that matches their query really well.

And as bad as that is with a "real" model like ChatGPT or Gemini, people also give the same respect to the idiotic, super-fast toy model Google uses for its "AI Overviews"!

Re: Google’s AI is being manipulated. The search giant is quietly fighting back

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it different from a person believing whatever they read on the Internet? The problem is LLMs have no capacity for shame. My Dad got taken in by a Target gift card scam. He felt so terrible, he almost didn't even tell me about it. He may get scammed again, but not by anything remotely like that. To LLMs, all mistakes just get washed together into the same bucket. They don't spend days feeling depressed and st…

This is a great point. I've added it to my list of things when talking about the limitations of LLM.

IMO we must take it a step further: In this context "the LLM" we're all automatically thinking-of doesn't exist, it is a fictional character we humans "see" inside a story being acted-out or read to us. (In contrast, the real-world LLM is an algorithm in a basement constantly taking documents and making them slightly longer based on trends detected in all documents.)

Therefore "the LLM can't feel shame" is true in the same way that "CyberDracula thirsts for the fluids of the innocent." Good news: Vampirism doesn't exist! Bad news: Curing Dracula is impossible, because the patient doesn't exist either. Go looking for the target mind we wanted to make more-intelligent or kinder, and it turns out to be a trick of the light.

The best we can do is change the generator process, so that the next story instead contains a different new character also named after Dracula (or a brand of LLM) that sounds smarter or is narrated with kinder actions.

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