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Colonization of Venus

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Re: Colonization of Venus

#101

Post by Tepix »

adrian_b wrote: post #19
seszett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 50 km altitude above Venus (where pressure is about 1 bar) you are not really in the "upper atmosphere" as there is still about as much atmosphere above you as on ground level on Earth. So UV radiation is not a problem. The atmosphere of Venus is just very thick. Also it contains many useful elements, C, O and H, which can be used to build basically anything if you have enough solar energy. The problem is the (com…

From the point of view of exploitable resources, Venus is the opposite of Mars. On Mars, metals are very abundant and easy to extract, and also minerals suitable for making glass or ceramic materials are abundant, but the raw materials for making food and organic materials, like plastics, are very scarce and expensive to concentrate. On Venus, there are abundant resources for making organic materials and food (except…

Mars has a huge amount of water ice

Re: Colonization of Venus

#102

Post by JumpCrisscross »

adrian_b wrote: post #87
1970-01-01 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True fact, but not by much, as plans are already in-progress with Artemis V and a lunar colony.

The results of some experiments done with mice on the ISS have been published recently and they cast doubt about the possibility of living for a long time on the Moon. For mice, at least a third of the Earth gravity was required to prevent serious health problems and at least two thirds to avoid any health problems. So it seems that the gravity of Mars is close to the minimum compatible with long-term staying, while…

> results of some experiments done with mice on the ISS have been published recently and they cast doubt about the possibility of living for a long time on the Moon

We’re too early in low- (versus zero-) g research to draw conclusions. And from drugs to resistance routines, we haven’t even started researching mitigation.

The best argument for Moon and Mars bases is to enable this sort of research at scale.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#103

Post by WalterBright »

a_t48 wrote: post #97
WalterBright wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mechanical carbon capture is a joke. There's no way it can scale enough to be measurable. It also requires energy - coming from where? Trees, on the other hand, can scale, and they get their energy from the sun.

Wind! Venus is full of it. (Making it so that your wind power can survive corrosion and the high speeds is an exercise left to the reader)

In order for a windmill to work, it has to be anchored. There's no wind if you're floating in it.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#104

Post by WalterBright »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #100
Robotbeat wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand this. Elon thought of a way to virtually eliminate the land, heat, water, and energy impacts of datacenters, and because it makes his companies money instead of being non-profit, this is bad? Maybe I do get it. It’s not about the actual impact. It’s entirely about performing. Profit (which is literally just a measure of whether the return on something is greater than the inputs) is somehow evil, bu…

> Elon thought of a way to virtually eliminate the land, heat, water, and energy impacts of datacenters He has yet to do any of this. He had an idea that plenty of others have had, and have mostly dismissed due to concerns with feasibility. Granted, orbital DCs could one day be feasible with enough investment; I will not pretend that it is impossible. But for him to pretend that it is a solution for today's problems…

Elon has been called an idiot for every single one of his ventures. Again and again and again.

Maybe he'll fail this time. Maybe he'll figure it out.

But I like the fact that he is trying rather than spending his money on mansions and yachts.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#105

Post by WalterBright »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #82
WalterBright wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of complaints about the environmental consequences of data centers. Musk is investing heavily in putting data centers in space.

Which is, it should be said, also a dumb idea and a waste of money.

Which has also been said for every one of his enormously successful businesses.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#106

Post by WalterBright »

teachrdan wrote: post #88
WalterBright wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of complaints about the environmental consequences of data centers. Musk is investing heavily in putting data centers in space.

Musk could spend 10 or even 100 billion on more down to Earth efforts without affecting his quality of life in the slightest. Instead he's promoting a self-serving idea, one that relies entirely on his own rocket-company infrastructure. Putting data centers in space is also a dumb idea due to the difficulty of dissipating heat, solar radiation, maintenance challenges and more.

I wish I was as "dumb" as Musk is. Long before Musk, I fantasized that if I was a billionaire, I would blow it all on a mission to Mars. Musk is living the dream. I bought shares in his companies just to share in the dream a bit!

Re: Colonization of Venus

#107

Post by pasta67 »

bhelkey wrote: post #94
pavel_lishin wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If not enough water would be found underground on Mars, that would be really difficult to transport from elsewhere. I was under the (uneducated) impression that there was a fair amount of water ice locked up in asteroids that are fairly easy to redirect into a Mars capture orbit.

Mars also has two polar ice caps [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps

True... I had to look if wiki has some new information, but no - as expected it is frozen ice of co2 and not h2o. Getting that h from somewhere to make water is still going to be an issue on Mars.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#108

Post by pasta67 »

Tepix wrote: post #101
adrian_b wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the point of view of exploitable resources, Venus is the opposite of Mars. On Mars, metals are very abundant and easy to extract, and also minerals suitable for making glass or ceramic materials are abundant, but the raw materials for making food and organic materials, like plastics, are very scarce and expensive to concentrate. On Venus, there are abundant resources for making organic materials and food (except…

Mars has a huge amount of water ice

No. Most of that is co2. There are a lot of comets that can deliver ice(of water), but if that is a solution then that works for Venus as well.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#109

Post by pasta67 »

Robotbeat wrote: post #4
1970-01-01 wrote: post #3

It would be a colony constantly depending on Earth supplies and you would be constantly rebuilding it. Just like every other planet, nothing can permanently survive in upper atmosphere. It would be easier to have a massive ISS-style station in orbit, with a tethered cable elevator for research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_Microorganisms_in_the...

Untrue. You can actually mine the Venusian surface for metals. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen (the vast majority of the elements used by life) can be extracted from the atmosphere, as well as sulfur. So from an elemental standpoint, it actually could be self-sufficient. Not that you’d WANT to avoid trade with other planets, but it is possible. It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficu…

>>>It is also possible to terraform Venus, although much more difficult than for Mars.

I would argue that it is very much opposite. Venus has already 80% mass of Earth. Mars on other hand have not much different gravity than that of Moon and Moon is much closer to Earth if you plan to make something suitable for older folks that look for lighter gravity.

Re: Colonization of Venus

#110

Post by a_t48 »

WalterBright wrote: post #103
a_t48 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wind! Venus is full of it. (Making it so that your wind power can survive corrosion and the high speeds is an exercise left to the reader)

In order for a windmill to work, it has to be anchored. There's no wind if you're floating in it.

Spitballing here, you might be able to use some sort of floating wind turbine, and trail it out on a long enough cable to catch a different windstream. There's all sorts of reasons why it's a pretty terrible idea.
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