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Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

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Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#101

Post by magicalhippo »

jyounker wrote: post #77
magicalhippo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But artillery only has a short range, less than 50-60km. Ukraina is bombing trucks with FPV drones at that range now. So you'd need serious anti-drone capabilities to get the artillery close enough, and good luck if you have it sitting around deployed for any lenghth of time.

Modern artillery doesn't sit in fixed emplacements. It fires a few shells, and then moves. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_artillery_system

Sure, but when they're moving they're not shooting, so those few shells better count.

Both shooting and moving is very detrimental to staying hidden. And with FPV drones moving doesn't do you much good unless you move out of drone range, which as mentioned is or very nearly is 2x the effective range of such artillery systems.

The attack drones don't have to be big, just big enough to score a mobility kill and the artillery is pretty much f'd in the a...

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#102

Post by halJordan »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #40
arjie wrote: post #17

I always wonder about these production numbers in the military. The US has a large military complex and Germany is an industrial power and North Korea is a small military autocracy suffering from raw material shortages, but Googling around I see[0]: > The expert also said that the North’s annual production estimate of 2 million 152-millimeter artillery shells is premised on peacetime manufacturing rates. But here Ger…

The US doesn't use that much artillery as a matter of tactics. A significant portion of their capacity exists to support other countries. Artillery is suited for combat with clear lines of confrontation. US doctrine actively tilts the battlefield so that these lines don't form, which plays to their strengths.

The us doesn't use artillery because it doesn't conduct large scale combat operations. Artillery is still very much the King of Battle in lsco

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#103

Post by anton1982t »

mrits wrote: post #68
booleandilemma wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it's the government of Iran, apparently.

Are you referring to the new government Iran that took over after their leadership has been removed?

They're likely referring to the government that controls Hormuz straight.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#104

Post by anton1982t »

vkou wrote: post #37
arjie wrote: post #17

I always wonder about these production numbers in the military. The US has a large military complex and Germany is an industrial power and North Korea is a small military autocracy suffering from raw material shortages, but Googling around I see[0]: > The expert also said that the North’s annual production estimate of 2 million 152-millimeter artillery shells is premised on peacetime manufacturing rates. But here Ger…

The US spends much of its defense budget on building expensive high-tech toys and maintaining 11 carrier strike groups, because it's military priorities are, in decreasing priority: * Making sure everyone loses a MAD nuclear war * Maintaining undisputed naval dominance in five oceans. * Bombing people on its imperial adventures all around the world. * Offering security and protection in exchange for military and econ…

Undisputed naval dominance in five oceans minus Hormuz straight.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#105

Post by i000 »

strangegecko wrote: post #54
i000 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are voted down. Came here to make the same joke.

It's a dumb joke considering Germany has been one of the most peaceful countries in decades. And the people making the jokes are often citizens of a country actively engaged in wars.

Gearmany's pacifism is just like its green energy transition hypocrytical and ineffective. Their Energiewende was to shutdown nuclear to bring back coal. Their Zeitenwend amounted to bankrolling Putin's war machine via the Norstream pipelines at the expense of the very same countries they tried to anhiliate in WW2. So yeah, I think I can crack a joke.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#106

Post by i000 »

walrus01 wrote: post #34
inquirerGeneral wrote: post #10

[flagged]

The actual risks of modern day Germany going on a hegemonic rampage across Europe are extremely low. Their interests these days are much more aligned with maintaining proper democratic institutions, the EU, and being a voice for the free non-russia-aligned world.

Have you looked at the rise of Germany's right-wing politics recently? AfD with 18.8% in Baden-Württemberg (west Germany, relatively rich).

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#107

Post by zeristor »

esseph wrote: post #96
wildzzz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is an excellent reminder that trench warfare sucks and is a manpower and resource drain for both sides. One guy in a fighter jet is probably 1000000x more effective than a guy in a trench. One guided munition has the capability to decapitate an entire government.

> One guy in a fighter jet is probably 1000000x more effective than a guy in a trench A guy in a trench with a $25,000 electro-optical/thermal MANPAD can now snipe a $100+ million dollar 5th gen stealth fighter flying low and fast. To decapitate a government you'd just need a roughly $500 drone you can make at home and some homemade explosives. Bonus points if you harden it from electronic attack and use INS and opti…

With this tech advantage what is there to stop Ukraine advancing into half of Russia?

Russia is a nuclear power, I’m not sure if they’ve missed the moment or the fact so much was spent on its upkeep it was a magnet for corruption and all the rocket fuel has been replaced with pipe cleaner.

The thing that really annoys me is there’s lots of great Russian people, and Putin has herded them off of a cliff. Where does Russia go from here, or can Russia go?

A myriad of warlords? The Russian East disintegrates and China comes in to reclaim the land Russia took after the Boxer Rebellion 150 years ago?

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#108

Post by Gud »

zeristor wrote: post #107
esseph wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One guy in a fighter jet is probably 1000000x more effective than a guy in a trench A guy in a trench with a $25,000 electro-optical/thermal MANPAD can now snipe a $100+ million dollar 5th gen stealth fighter flying low and fast. To decapitate a government you'd just need a roughly $500 drone you can make at home and some homemade explosives. Bonus points if you harden it from electronic attack and use INS and opti…

With this tech advantage what is there to stop Ukraine advancing into half of Russia? Russia is a nuclear power, I’m not sure if they’ve missed the moment or the fact so much was spent on its upkeep it was a magnet for corruption and all the rocket fuel has been replaced with pipe cleaner. The thing that really annoys me is there’s lots of great Russian people, and Putin has herded them off of a cliff. Where does Rus…

Many parts of Russia were independent kingdoms only recently. Probably (hopefully!) Russia will disintegrate into its smaller pieces.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#109

Post by kameit00 »

cramsession wrote: post #81
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your neighbor decides not to, the only way for you to stay away from the war is to have weapons to kill them before they get to you... (Of course, the best solution to an aggressive neighbor is to have so many weapons that they know they would die if they attacked, so they don't even try.) It only starts to be a problem is when your government starts using those weapons in wars of aggression. Among Western democra…

> It only starts to be a problem is when your government starts using those weapons in wars of aggression. Among Western democracies, only the US comes to mind... Israel (which Germany is providing weapons to) does nothing but attack its neighbors. A good portion of the imperialist aggression coming from the US is also done on Israel's behalf. Germany is certainly complicit in this.

Did you really read documents about the history? Your wording suggests 'no'.

Re: Germany has become the largest ammunition producer in the world

#110

Post by gpderetta »

tristanj wrote: post #98
wahern wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is still investing in artillery plants, and it's why several other NATO countries are building more capacity as we speak (for their own and Ukraine's use). Artillery isn't any more obsolete than bullets, it's just not sexy, and at the margins isn't as strategically important. You can't win a war without controlling ground. It's why the US lost the Iran War, and Vietnam before it, despite having an unfettered…

Artillery is only viable on Ukraine's side because Russia is too incompetent to manufacture long-range (30-50km) FPV strike drones at scale. Currently only Ukraine has pushed the "kill zone" to the 15-25km mark. Russia is behind. But this situation will not last, drone technology will improve on all sides, China will innovate on drone range and Russia will buy those drones. The drone "kill zone" will surpass the rang…

A good artillery team should be able to fire and scoot before counter-battery fire. And that's supersonic. You won't be able to do counter-battery with current drones. And an hypothetical supersonic drone is not going to be cost effective.

Drones are likely still great to opportunistically picking up artillery that is scouted by other surveillance drones, but it is probably not the best solution for attacking a battery that is currently firing, unless a drone happens to be already in position.

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