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ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

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Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#101

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

zamadatix wrote: post #83
t1234s wrote: post #77

Isn't the ISS supposed to be the most complicated machine ever built by humans?

I usually hear it as "one of the most expensive single projects" rather than the most complex. I'd bet there any many more complex, the LHC comes to mind.

In terms of precission engineering LHC is for sure more complex. But then again ISS is made out of many life-critical systems. In safety critical systems a the actual hardware may look simpler in some ways than stuff you see on the bleeding edge for that category of product, but then the complexity is in turning it into something that can be safety certifiable. Just different math entirely.

ie there's lots of fun applications for radar, some of them have very complex math involved in manufacturing processes. Then you got automotive radar, you mainly need to get the position and velocity of some objects, the math is simpler. But you have to certify that stuff for ASIL-D, no one makes you ASIL-D radars, so you combine multiple radars. 3'Bs make a D as the saying goes.. Then you gotta worry about BOM costs because you want to ship 10 million cars..

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#102

Post by thelastgallon »

I thought the power grid is the most complex machine. The power grid is a gigantic machine spanning a country or significant parts of a country. It includes all the power production plants, millions of miles of transmission and distribution lines, substations for transmission and distribution, and billions of devices consuming power for residential and industrial use. The grid ensures these billions of devices are operating at 60 Hz frequency—all the time. The grid's primary function is to maintain this frequency, no matter what.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#103

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

rigonkulous wrote: post #97
i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so it had an unusual amount of inputs and outputs? that's the measure?

For this thought experiment I would welcome you to contribute another measure besides cyclomatic complexity as a means of ascertaining the truth of the matter, because after all complexity is multi-dimensional, but on the basis of number of actual things that have to be qualitatively measured in order for the machine to function as intended, I can think of a few other big machines that would be in scope, but - as a p…

Contenders:

ASML: Complexity as a strategic resource

ASML: The most hard to reproduce machine in the world

ASML: One of Europe's most complex strategic resources

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#104

Post by kens »

Amorymeltzer wrote: post #95
kens wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chip War is an interesting book, but it has a lot of errors, which made it frustrating to read. For instance, it said that vacuum tube computers were hardly usable because they attracted moths, so they required constant debugging and were only used in specialized applications like cryptography. This is wrong in many ways. Most notably, Grace Hopper's story of the moth was in the Harvard Mark II computer, a relay comp…

Don't have it in front of me so I can't comment on the actual language, but wasn't ENIAC designed for the purpose of firing tables, but the time it was "completed" got used for e.g. H-bomb?

Yes. The statement in Chip War, like many others, is close to correct but still wrong. When a book gets many things wrong in an area that I know, it makes me worry about its accuracy in areas that I don't know. (See Gell-Mann Amnesia.)

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#105

Post by fl4regun »

andsoitis wrote: post #100
kens wrote: post #82

Is the ASML machine actually the world's most complex machine under some metric, or is this a claim that someone made up? I.e., did someone actually compare the ASML machine to the Space Shuttle, LHC, Internet, and so forth and show that it is more complex under some definition? (I've done various historical questions, so I'm sensitive to how statements are sourced.) An orthogonal question is what makes sense as a me…

> NASA says the Space Shuttle has 2.5 million moving parts, while the article says the ASML machine has over 100,000 components. I don’t know that many people would classify the Space Shuttle as a machine. It doesn’t make anything.

Why do machines have to "make" things? Is a car not a machine?

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#106

Post by pfortuny »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #96
kens wrote: post #82

Is the ASML machine actually the world's most complex machine under some metric, or is this a claim that someone made up? I.e., did someone actually compare the ASML machine to the Space Shuttle, LHC, Internet, and so forth and show that it is more complex under some definition? (I've done various historical questions, so I'm sensitive to how statements are sourced.) An orthogonal question is what makes sense as a me…

I've heard that US nuclear subs actually take the crown, but the design is so secret, that there's no way to verify.

An aircraft carrier would like a word.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#107

Post by ghc »

andsoitis wrote: post #100
kens wrote: post #82

Is the ASML machine actually the world's most complex machine under some metric, or is this a claim that someone made up? I.e., did someone actually compare the ASML machine to the Space Shuttle, LHC, Internet, and so forth and show that it is more complex under some definition? (I've done various historical questions, so I'm sensitive to how statements are sourced.) An orthogonal question is what makes sense as a me…

> NASA says the Space Shuttle has 2.5 million moving parts, while the article says the ASML machine has over 100,000 components. I don’t know that many people would classify the Space Shuttle as a machine. It doesn’t make anything.

Why would a machine need to make anything? Is a robot arm not a machine? How about a trash compactor? Are the 6 types of simple machines not machines?

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#109

Post by crispyambulance »

kens wrote: post #82

Is the ASML machine actually the world's most complex machine under some metric, or is this a claim that someone made up? I.e., did someone actually compare the ASML machine to the Space Shuttle, LHC, Internet, and so forth and show that it is more complex under some definition? (I've done various historical questions, so I'm sensitive to how statements are sourced.) An orthogonal question is what makes sense as a me…

It's "complex enough" to be notable for it's complexity and thus a good example for considering the character and economics of complex machinery.

It's kind of pointless to fret about whether it's "the most complex" like there's an objective 1-dimensional ranking that even has utility.

Re: ASML became the chokepoint for cutting-edge chips

#110

Post by snek_case »

fl4regun wrote: post #105
andsoitis wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NASA says the Space Shuttle has 2.5 million moving parts, while the article says the ASML machine has over 100,000 components. I don’t know that many people would classify the Space Shuttle as a machine. It doesn’t make anything.

Why do machines have to "make" things? Is a car not a machine?

A lever is classified as a simple machine.

Wrt the space shuttle, I would take some issue because you could say it's not just one machine, but a collection of many, for example it probably has onboard computer systems that are not always in use. It would be a bit like saying that a whole factory is "a machine". Whereas the ASML devices serve one single clear purpose.

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