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A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

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Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#101

Post by hibberl6 »

ericmcer wrote: post #62
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

I never remotely believed this because I don't even believe in a "me" really. One hard hit in the head can literally change your personality entirely, then you have alzheimers and all the other degenerative brain diseases that will erase "you". Even if you avoid all that "you" will be wildly different every 15-20 years. Christianity gets through this by saying you will return to your prime. That just seems kind of ch…

[dead]

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#102

Post by chubs »

ericmcer wrote: post #62
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

I never remotely believed this because I don't even believe in a "me" really. One hard hit in the head can literally change your personality entirely, then you have alzheimers and all the other degenerative brain diseases that will erase "you". Even if you avoid all that "you" will be wildly different every 15-20 years. Christianity gets through this by saying you will return to your prime. That just seems kind of ch…

I believe you resolve it by the concept of spirit/body dualism, where your body/soul degenerates but the spirit is still fine.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#103

Post by chubs »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #90
zzrrt wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Christian resurrection at prime usually means having the body of a 25-year old, not the mind. Maybe they'd say the physical brain can corrupt the eternal consciousness's expression while in this life, but it does still raise questions like how will you even recognize the eternal "you" when you've been trapped in a corruptible brain for all that you can remember, and what is the eternal part's worth if it can…

Also well-known now is that our feelings are affected by things like our gut biome. Do all our little passengers resurrect with us?

The traditional concept of an 'embodied' resurrection (as opposed to ghosts playing harps) makes me lean towards: yes (eg the gut is part of the body). Who knows though, it's a fun question!

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#104

Post by chubs »

lapcat wrote: post #59
md224 wrote: post #22

The most striking thing to me is that Ayer hopes there isn't life after death. > My recent experiences have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death, which is due fairly soon, will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be . (italics mine) I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. (I think Thomas…

> I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. I feel that eternity in Heaven would actually be Hell, because nothing would matter. No danger, no failure, no challenge, no goals, no purpose. What gives life meaning are mortality, limitations, beginnings and endings, progress. I recently watched the film "Eternity" on Apple TV, sta…

"All I could think about was how bored I would eventually get" I used to wonder this. I read the religious answer to this relies on the concept of infinitude: what if an infinite god can invent an infinite number of exciting new... things to do?

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#105

Post by lapcat »

chubs wrote: post #104
lapcat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. I feel that eternity in Heaven would actually be Hell, because nothing would matter. No danger, no failure, no challenge, no goals, no purpose. What gives life meaning are mortality, limitations, beginnings and endings, progress. I recently watched the film "Eternity" on Apple TV, sta…

"All I could think about was how bored I would eventually get" I used to wonder this. I read the religious answer to this relies on the concept of infinitude: what if an infinite god can invent an infinite number of exciting new... things to do?

God as Mr. Roarke?

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#106

Post by the_af »

emmelaich wrote: post #89
Swizec wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NDEs happening under monitored conditions (operating tables) I had general anesthesia 10 days ago. There was no NDE, felt like they flicked an off switch then turned me back on a few hours later. They wheeled me from the prep room towards the OR, opened the big door, and then I was in a different room waking up from anesthesia. That’s it.

Do you frequently experience and remember dreams?

I do remember dreams. The times where I was anesthesized it was that on/off switch, I completely lost time. No NDE or even dreams.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#107

Post by the_af »

The thing I don't get about accounts of NDE and what people say about them afterwards is this: if they lived to tell the tale, their near death wasn't actual death. They didn't "peak over to the other side". So whatever they experienced was what the brain experienced well within the realm of the living. And we know it was within the living enough that the person recovered and was able to recount the experience! How can there be any argument about this? How anyone can draw any conclusions about an alleged afterlife from this is beyond me.

Isaac Asimov famously reflected upon this. When he had a close call with death, he didn't see anything. He didn't expect to, and he didn't. It's very likely that our expectations shape what we see, at least partly... that's the brain conjuring imagery and trying to make sense of what it can, I suppose.

Whenever I've been under anesthesia, it was like an on/off switch. I didn't even dream, even though I do remember some of my dreams.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#108

Post by kamaal »

_alternator_ wrote: post #95
hackthemack wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My memory is a bit hazy, but I thought what you are describing is very common with people who flatline and come back? I have vague memories that a new anesthetic drug was developed and used on soldiers undergoing surgery in the Vietnam war, and there was something about it that caused the same kind of reaction in those who were put under. Again, my memory is very hazy on the subject. I should go do some research and…

I was going to mention ketamine. Famous for this type of effect. I don't want to belittle the meaningful experience, but the mind is a really powerful organ and it's a safer bet to treat these experiences as arising from mind rather than beyond it. Shrug.

>>it's a safer bet to treat these experiences as arising from mind rather than beyond it

Your brain has to be alive and exist normally for it to have these experiences. So its quite obvious, nothing is coming from outside of it.

I do feel like its some kind of brain rebooting itself or something like that.

Its sad babies can't tell us if they experience the same during childbirth, but I have a guess that they experience something similar as well.

Its just that the brain is starting up and checking if there is a OxDEADBEEF or a fresh boot. And giving you the primal, brain not initialising any other interface(like eyes, ears, limbs etc). You experience what life would be if only brain existed on its own without everything else apart from it.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#109

Post by LocalH »

bobbyswiss wrote: post #100
rhyperior wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The raw electromagnetic emissions of uncountable atoms jostling through space and time.

But that's a model and models are of the mind

But outside of what we can model, said atoms exist, and we perceive them. Objective reality is those atoms before we perceive them

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#110

Post by kamaal »

pino999 wrote: post #32
md224 wrote: post #22

The most striking thing to me is that Ayer hopes there isn't life after death. > My recent experiences have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death, which is due fairly soon, will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be . (italics mine) I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. (I think Thomas…

It is the safest and easiest solution. You die, nothing happens. When there is an afterlife or perhaps even eternity, the problems begin.

>>perhaps even eternity

If there is an eternity, perhaps everybody that exists, or will exist is already a part of it, and is going through it.

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