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Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

clojure.org

101–110 of 127 posts

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#101
post #68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on a large Clojure codebase with AI, and I'm getting excellent results. Likely factors are code density, the resulting token density, and a lot of well-architected code that the AI can follow — I'm not sure exactly, but the results are really good.

Yeah I see this at work - people are sceptical that AI + Clojure even works but in my experience its amazing the overall quality of Clojure code in the wild tends to be higher than your typical language so AI's training on Clojure tends to be on modern and high quality code and the language is very token efficient, you can also tell AI to interact with the REPL to avoid restarts The only downside I've seen reported i…

> mis-matched parens

FWIW, I never get mis-matched parens when working with Claude Code in Clojure. I guess the key is to use clojure-mcp tools. If there ever is a mismatch during work (rarely, but I've seen it happen), claude fixes it using the tools right away.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#102
post #16

didn't know datomic was free of licensing fees - I didn't use it back in the day because the cost was prohibitive... interesting

It is!

And also it has inspired a few other clojure datalog databases, so there is much more choice: * https://github.com/datalevin/datalevin * https://github.com/replikativ/datahike * https://github.com/threatgrid/asami

There is also xtdb, but it abandoned datalog and is going in another (albeit interesting direction) https://xtdb.com/

here is a comparison website, but it is somewhat out of date: https://clojurelog.github.io/

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#103
post #98
post #96

Interesting, how many ex-users of Clojure are in the comments. Everyone is praising it, but also everyone moved to something else?

It’s a real statistical outlier, nearly every language people have moved on from gets negative reviews. Me, it was fun but it wasn’t for me and eventually I concluded a number of the fundamental design decisions were wrong.

Can elaborate which design decisions were wrong and why in your view?

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#104
post #59

Looking back Clojure has been the best thing to happen to me in this industry I doubled my salary using it and changed industries to much more stable industries I've been to a lot of conferences and meet ups in my career but the feeling of joy and inclusivity at Heart of Clojure was unreal The community is still alive and well, my favourite passionate sub culture in the Clojure community at the moment is the Jank com…

> What surprised me the most in working with Clojure commercially is how many commercial developers did not get the ethos of the language or have watched the rich hickey talks or use the REPL Yeah, this continues to stick out. The amount of people I've come across who do Clojure development and restart the application (really, the JVM process, kill it and launch it again, over and over!) is way too high, considering…

I'm probably not the sort of person you're referring to, but I do regularly restart the REPL because

1. multimethods, if you change the dispatch fn you can't get it just with a recompile, there are tools to help with this but i'm not yet in the hang of using them after several years. (Many people don't hit this because they don't use multimethods. I love multimethods for the use cases I've hit so far with clojure.)

2. interceptors (pedestal) - I love this pattern and lib, and they've made moves toward improving repl friendliness, but I find I need to recompile two NSes typically to get a true reload even in dev mode (the one where my routes are defined and the one where a particular interceptor chain is defined). sometimes i lose track of what i've reloaded, and I dont know if a bug is "real" or just an artifact of forgetting to recompile - "f it, just restart the repl"

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#105
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you using now? how do you feel about clojure now?

I love the clojure, but I think a big downside is not being able to use it at work and now work feels like I'm being forced to work with stone age tools in comparison. Sometimes I think I was happier before I learned Clojure.

I never understood this sentiment. Even if nobody on my team uses Emacs or Vim, or Clojure, Rust, Zig or Nix, or some browser extensions, or any other tool, nobody could ever directly deny me access or restrict the use of any of that on my machine, some vm-box or EC2. And once I prove their usability to me personally, I show that to my colleagues and typically people when impressed they start using them. Once you have more than three people, you can start discussing rolling it out for general use. Just this past year alone, I have convinced my teammates to use a bunch of tools they'd never heard of before.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#106

I've always enjoyed using Clojure. Unfortunately, most of the things I do require interacting with the C world, so it has never been a real option as my primary language.

Have a look at Janet. It is not as powerful as Clojure but for smaller projects, prototyping, scripting etc., it is really enjoyable.

https://janet-lang.org/

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but without a clean REPL you can't easily be sure that your var definitions are what you think they are.

Sure, so once a week or so you need to restart the process if you end up like that. What I've seen people do, is restart the process after each change like you typically do in other languages, rather than evaluating the current form...

Once a week?! Aren't you killing the repl at least to run a full test suite without any stale leftover developer state before deploying?

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, so once a week or so you need to restart the process if you end up like that. What I've seen people do, is restart the process after each change like you typically do in other languages, rather than evaluating the current form...

Once a week?! Aren't you killing the repl at least to run a full test suite without any stale leftover developer state before deploying?

Full test suites I run before committing essentially, in a separate tab altogether, then the full suite is typically also run in CI before any deploys.

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#109

Clojure is a great language and ecosystem. I donated a little money to Rich's efforts in the early days (I loved his older Common Lisp - Java bridge so his Clojure project was immediately interesting) and I have been paid for a few years of Clojure development. I like maintaining the history in one place, nicely done. I don't use Clojure much anymore, but two hours ago I updated two chapters in my old Clojure book be…

What made you stop using Clojure or not so much anymore? No jobs in Clojure? Also, in your view, is Clojure better suited for ML / AI apps? And if so, what is stopping it from being more widely adopted. I read the interop with Python ML libraries is good?

> what is stopping it from being more widely adopted.

The best tools usually need a level of skill or patience that most developers just don't have time for. And companies have to ship with the developers they actually have, not ideal ones.

Lisp, formal methods, immutability, property-based testing - we agree on these. They just demand more than most people can give under a real deadline. A tool that shines in expert hands but falls flat for everyone else will lose to a tool that's just okay for everybody. Every time. That's basically what "worse is better" means.

In our industry we tend to approach things with "scientific methods", without actually using scientific methodology. Nobody experiments developing a real business solution with multiple teams using completely different set of tools just to see which one proves to have better ROI. What we do instead is that we go to forums and emotionally "mansplain" our anecdotal, subjective feelings about a tool or technique. Anecdotes aren't completely worthless; they're low-quality evidence, which is different. A senior engineer saying "every time I've seen a team adopt microservices before they had the operational maturity, it ended badly" is transmitting pattern-recognition from, say, fifteen projects. That's not a randomized controlled trial, but it's also not nothing. But there's flood of "unfalsifiable anecdotes" - claims structured so that any counterexample gets explained away ("you weren't doing real TDD...").

Rich Hickey's talks are not science - they're argument from principles, with illustrative examples. But they're honest about being that. He doesn't pretend to have benchmarks proving immutability is better; he reasons about it from costs and trade-offs and lets you decide. That's a legitimate mode of technical discourse. Contrast with someone claiming "studies show" functional programming reduces defects by 40%, citing one paper with n=12 undergraduates. The second is worse, and it's worse specifically because it's pretending to be scientific while the first isn't. I think the solution is not to make the field more rigorous and more scientific and require solid peer-reviewing of every idea. It's making the field more honest about the kind of claims we make.

Clojure remains hard sell to beginners because they haven't suffered enough yet. Experienced engineers get excited about immutable data because they've spent nights debugging race conditions. They appreciate simple functions-and-data because they've been lost in a tangled class hierarchy. The language solves problems they've actually had. Junior devs haven't hit those walls yet, so the solutions feel pointless. Why would you care about a painkiller if nothing hurts?

Re: Official Clojure Documentary page with Video, Shownotes, and Links

#110
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sad there's no European presence (unless I missed someone). There's tons of Clojure over there. Metosin, Juxt, Borkent, Gaiwan (Arne), Flexiana, Peter Strömberg (Calva), Dustin Getz (hyperfiddle/electric), Christophe Grand (ClojureDart), Bojidar (CIDER), Renzo, and many, many more.

I agree. Probably a cost issue as all interviews appear to be done in person.

They could've cut Zoom interviews in there - they are not expensive. The documentary creates a skewed image of Clojure being mainly in Americas, while in fact the big chunk of it is on the other side, where they have more conferences, (probably) more startups and (perhaps) people using it.
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