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A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

llama.gs

101–110 of 121 posts

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#101

This was a fascinating article, because I've seen so many results of the Eastern Bloc reverse-engineering efforts basically founder into obscurity. Many of these re-created (sometimes with minor variations, or quite novel and ingenious implementation choices) computers were made in small series, but could not compete against illegal imports, and in any case would only be briefly popular in their local university town…

Quite a few words in Bulgarian are similar to words in other European languages, just written in a different alphabet. I briefly dated a girl in Bulgaria years ago and was surprised at how quickly I could find my way around by reading street signs, applying knowledge of French and German, etc. The author asks why did the communists always clone things despite having engineers who could have designed their own? You do…

That’s a nice driving tour of the effects of the economic calculation problem.

For those unfamiliar (not Mike based on his observations about Star Trek’s economy), absent a working price system, no rational method for economizing, i.e., choosing between alternatives, exists. When building a railroad, do you go around the mountain or tunnel through it? Who knows? Take away the profit-loss test, and the loudest, most aggressive thug in the room wins out, which Mike noted the history of communist countries as confirming.

Understanding the economic calculation problem reveals why communists had to copy or steal not just the technology but even its prices. Granting the extreme of an entire country full of perfectly obedient “new Soviet men” — which emphatically did not exist, as shown by the common saying “We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us” — Maximum Leader is in the dark without prices; he doesn’t know what to command them to build! So he does the next best thing: crib off someone else’s paper.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#102
post #62
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're eliding the more prosaic and direct explanation for why the Soviets were forced to clone chips instead of designing systems from scratch: cost. The American semiconductor industry had a vast civilian customer base that let it recoup R&D expenses. The Soviets didn’t. Chip Wars covers this in detail with numbers.

Cost can't be the true reason. In a planned economy, the customer base doesn't matter. If the state wants to allocate X number of engineers to do Y, it simply does, at the expense of whatever other project is considered politically less important. The fact that the customers' demands have no influence on resource allocation, except to the extent that bureaucrats decide it's politically convenient to address them, is…

That is a simplistic and naive POV.

Yes, the state can allocate X engineers to do Y.

But a complex system requires Z engineers to design subsystem 1, and repeat 100x.

And engineers for sub-subsystems.

And specialists for allocating resources reliably.

And mass shipping systems for transporting those resources efficiently (remember, this is a country that STILL doesn't have palletized supply chains!).

Unlike defeating the Third Reich, it is not a problem that can be solved by merely throwing more bodies at it.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#103
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or as the post-'68 West-German joke goes: "When two leftists meet, 3 splinter groups are formed", doesn't quite roll off the tounge like the German version "Treffen sich zwei Linke: bilden sich 3 Splittergruppen."

Indeed. It is quite fascinating how that is simultaneously a wide-spread view of the left, while at the same time the left is regularly accused of being all collectivist. Some left wing ideologies are decidedly collectivist. Some are going equally far in the other direction...

No one but you and the poster above you is discussing "the left" as a single group.

"Communism" is being discussed, and implicitly Soviet communism, which ruled a gigantic portion of both Europe and northern Asia for several decades, producing a very definable system of rewards and disincentives, both legal and otherwise.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#104
The current AI approach to technology is masterfully described as

> to build something enormous, declare it transformative, and hope nobody asks what it actually computes.

And the corollary:

> [such] approach requires billions of dollars and produces systems that cannot explain themselves.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You couldn't just go and sell stuff in the west. The USSR had exit visas. You had to prove you had a genuine need to leave, would be searched and treated very carefully. And proving a need to leave was difficult. Merely wanting to go on holiday or see relatives wasn't close to enough. There were very few exit visas available, which is why stories about defectors are often about elite athletes or sports champions. htt…

>>Also the Soviets manufactured very little of anything valuable to the west. Their primary exports were commodities. Time to mention the story of how Pepsi Co briefly had one of the largest navies in the world, because CCCP couldn't settle its debt to Pepsi with cash, so they accepted several warships instead. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/soviet-union-pepsi-shi...

Lol, that's an amazing story. Thanks for sharing, I'd never heard of it!

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#106
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regarding communism and computing, deterministic systems where the entire state is knowable and predictible have certain appeal for the communist mind. Francis Spufford explores this idea in Red Plenty , which I highly recommend. More broadly, I think the book would appeal to many HN readers.

Some explorations with an AI overlord also in LeGuin's "The Dispossessed"

Hard to talk about favorites in books, but there was a solid decade of my life where I'd have probably said this was my favorite sci fi book. Highly recommend to anyone reading this.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#107
post #93

If you grow up in that environment (restricted by government in some areas and liberated in others) you’ll start seeing systems very differently. The game plays differently with different rules. They had Pravets computers and robotic arms in rural classrooms in places that didn’t have traffic lights, or English teachers. Chess and Math competitions as well, were accessible everywhere. Those were all self-feedback mec…

>Even if only a tiny subset of any population has the cognitive surplus to meddle with programming and math, they had easy access to fulfill that and be found. This is exactly 100% not true. Source: I grew up behind the Iron Curtain. Why some people are so ready to glamorize poverty and restrictions, I don't even understand. Not every school had computers, and those which do, often had the fear of something being bro…

I wrote from personal experience. In 1992 in a fisherman town we had a robotic arm and Pravetz 8 and 16 computers with the 5 inch floppy disks. We had to use Basic to program the arm and it was only doing basic movements. The teacher had a 16 year old who was assisting with the lab and you did have to ask for permission to do stuff.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#108
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost can't be the true reason. In a planned economy, the customer base doesn't matter. If the state wants to allocate X number of engineers to do Y, it simply does, at the expense of whatever other project is considered politically less important. The fact that the customers' demands have no influence on resource allocation, except to the extent that bureaucrats decide it's politically convenient to address them, is…

That is a simplistic and naive POV. Yes, the state can allocate X engineers to do Y. But a complex system requires Z engineers to design subsystem 1, and repeat 100x. And engineers for sub-subsystems. And specialists for allocating resources reliably. And mass shipping systems for transporting those resources efficiently (remember, this is a country that STILL doesn't have palletized supply chains!). Unlike defeating…

I don't disagree with that, but that's not what was discussed. The person I was replying to was asserting that the Soviet union couldn't have developed semiconductors because unlike the US, it didn't have "a vast civilian customer base that let it recoup R&D expenses". My argument is that "recouping" anything doesn't matter in a planned economy.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#109
post #9

This was a fascinating article, because I've seen so many results of the Eastern Bloc reverse-engineering efforts basically founder into obscurity. Many of these re-created (sometimes with minor variations, or quite novel and ingenious implementation choices) computers were made in small series, but could not compete against illegal imports, and in any case would only be briefly popular in their local university town…

Bulgarian is phonetic to a large degree so if you know the sound associated to a letter, you can understandably pronounce it as well. Regarding communism and computing, deterministic systems where the entire state is knowable and predictible have certain appeal for the communist mind. If you search in the HN archives, you might find even more stories about the bulgarian computer industry with a MIT publication in the…

"systems where the entire state is knowable and predictible " was exactly what got computer systems killed in Communist Poland.

WEKTOR system was killed because it would made deputy minister of innovation at that time (Jan Mitręga) the best informed person in the Communist Party.

INFOSTRADA/KSI (Krajowy System Informatyczny - National IT System) systems were killed because they would disrupt the falsified and controlled information flow within the Communist Party.

Re: A communist Apple II and fourteen years of not knowing what you're testing

#110

This was a fascinating article, because I've seen so many results of the Eastern Bloc reverse-engineering efforts basically founder into obscurity. Many of these re-created (sometimes with minor variations, or quite novel and ingenious implementation choices) computers were made in small series, but could not compete against illegal imports, and in any case would only be briefly popular in their local university town…

Quite a few words in Bulgarian are similar to words in other European languages, just written in a different alphabet. I briefly dated a girl in Bulgaria years ago and was surprised at how quickly I could find my way around by reading street signs, applying knowledge of French and German, etc. The author asks why did the communists always clone things despite having engineers who could have designed their own? You do…

> Western AI labs keep claiming the Chinese labs are distilling them like crazy

It's been a couple years since I've seen a 'the Chinese can't innovate' post here and I can't say that I've missed it.

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