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The Importance of Being Idle

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Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#101

Post by Leomuck »

Boy does that resonate with my current feeling. I've spent the last maybe 18 months constantly working, paid, non-paid, voluntary work, side-projects, etc. I almost feel like I'm confusing myself with the amount of work/different projects I have. All while whenever I find an hour or two to just sit idle in the sun, I feel the very best, happy almost. No, I have nothing to show for this time, I can't go to bed with the feeling I've achieved something, I wasn't productive. But I feel.. good?

We have all learned (especially men I think) that we define parts of ourselves through what we achieve. However, is that a good idea? Also, what counts towards that goal? Did I achieve something if I support a friend that struggles? Or do I only achieve something that can be added to my CV? Who am I trying to show what about me?

I absolutely love the idea of being idle. It strictly goes againt current societal developments, but I think it would do a lot of good for a lot of people. We don't have to perform all the time, we don't have to be perfect all the time. What's the end-goal anyway? Rich people, statistically speaking, are not more happy. Managers with 60 hours a week often suffer from depression or burnout. The only two valid reasons in my mind to work hard are: 1. bring in enough money to live comfortably (which unfortunately isn't achievable for many) and 2. do good for society. Meanwhile, most people are struggling to even get by and tech CEOs can buy a new fancy car every day and tell us how to deal with the disruptions they cause? They tell us how we can save the economy? Why us? What did we do for the economy to be bad? Did we start wars, increase the cost of oil, create a self-inflicted banking crisis? What's it to us anyway? We're the ones suffering in the end, regardless of what we do.

I also find it quite irritating that the comments started discussing geopolitical power conflicts regarding idleness.

Anyway, I'm going to shut down my computer now and enjoy the sun. Happy idleness guys!

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#102

Post by DrProtic »

nekitamo wrote: post #41
lmf4lol wrote: post #35

I really do like the idea and the thinking behind it. I wpuld even argue that modern Europeans are already embracing and practicing much if it. Nearly no one I know in NL and DE works more than 36hrs per week. And we all have a sh”tload of holidays and irregular days off additionally. Need to get kids from school earlier? no prob… Need to spontanously (!) to go the dentist? no prob. (Honest disclaimer: I am talking h…

As an American living in Europe, I don't think the well-balanced European way of life is the cause of Europe "falling behind". Instead I think it's a combination of the following intertwined factors: bad policies, a stunningly incompetent array of bad leaders, and bad deployment of capital (by both private investors and the state). Agreed otherwise, the essay is great.

There is also one big thing, Europe even though it tries with the EU, is still a group of countries, not a single country.

It’s a lot easier for a business in one US state to expand to another one, but cross border business expansion in EU is still difficult.

People speak different languages, bureaucracy is different and often in a different language as well etc.

On top of that businesses are a lot more regulated than in the US.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#103

Post by ben_w »

graemep wrote: post #59
zemvpferreira wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European who has travelled/lived extensively in China and the US. I don't believe our problem is idleness. It's instead a pernicious belief in peace. There's no sense of geopolitical competition in society at large. We generate a lot of wealth in those 36 hours, but an immense amount of it is syphoned into areas that don't help us get ahead. We are too invested in tides that lift all boats. Being well-rested is not t…

Its complacency, at least in Western Europe. Centuries of being the world's leading powers have left an underlying sense of being at the top is just normal and is a position that does not need work to maintain. Even those who might accept this is no longer true intellectually find it hard to internalise.

I don't think that's the current problem. It was up to, perhaps, the Suez crisis or up until decolonisation, but since then I think we've mostly internalised that America (and more recently China) have been the leading powers.

The current complacency, one which we are currently still in the process of unwinding from (it will take years) is that of trade turning violent enemies into mutually beneficial growth opportunities. Russia was the first wake-up call there (but even then for the current situation not for Crimea), and over the last year also the USA. China is, I think, currently mostly seen as opportunity rather than threat.

War is expensive, and not doing it is good when possible. It is bad for everyone that we now feel the need to put 5% or whatever of our GDP into defence when it could have been spent on infrastructure, education, healthcare, or even startup grants.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#104

Post by jiriknesl »

zozbot234 wrote: post #63
graemep wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its complacency, at least in Western Europe. Centuries of being the world's leading powers have left an underlying sense of being at the top is just normal and is a position that does not need work to maintain. Even those who might accept this is no longer true intellectually find it hard to internalise.

Why should we care to be "at the top"? The average person gets no benefit from this; on the contrary, they would do a lot better if underperforming countries in Europe's neighborhood raised their standards of living.

"The average person gets no benefit from this" this is a very bad take.

In Europe, innovation in the end help everyone. Better healthcare starts with the rich, and ends distributed to everyone. The same is true for everything else.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#105

Post by joe_mamba »

gzread wrote: post #78
joe_mamba wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't believe our problem is idleness. It's instead a pernicious belief in peace. There's no sense of geopolitical competition in society at large. I disagree entirely. It's because most EU workers(at least in the richer most developed countries) don't get a proportional slice of the fruits of their labor, but only breadcrumbs after taxes. Working harder as an EU employee just means your boss/company gets to be ri…

But that's how it works in America and China as well. And in Russia. And basically everywhere. Since it's the same in all of these places, it fails to explain the differences.

In China, Russia and America the government doesn't pay you generously in welfare to not contribute to society.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#106

Post by mr_toad »

tock wrote: post #24
christoph123 wrote: post #11

I don't know... I know a few people who inherited enough money to be idle and they don't seem particularly happy with their idleness. Could of course be the social pressure we live in, and that could change if we're all idle.

It's conditioning. We cannot be happy idle because society deems idleness as bad. Just like people cannot be happy with a balding hairline because society has deemed it to be ugly. If the trend changes in a century and balding is suddenly hot then the same people would be happy.

It’s all about sex. Being idle typically means being poor. Try being in the dating market when you’re poor. Being bald means being middle aged which is also a big negative in the dating market.

The people who are lauding the virtues of being idle probably have money, and are of the age where they’re past measuring success by body count.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#107

Post by Telemakhos »

sheiyei wrote: post #75
joe_mamba wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If anything, big city CoL is the flip side of higher productivity inside the big city. Productivity is only one of the smaller reasons. The other bigger ones are landlord rent seeking, nimbyism, mass migration, interest rates and real estate speculation, all of which aren't connected to your income progress. That's how productivity and employment in a city can stagnate or even decline while real estate prices can ke…

Urbanization is a problem and not enough people acknowledge it.

The urban-rural distinction is one of the oldest ideological divides in human history, and that has built immense and unexamined prejudice. We have words like “urbane” and “polite” on the one hand and “pagan,” “villain” and “heathen” on the other, and nobody stops to think about how this is a one-way street of city-dwellers condemning their rustic relations. A lot of modern political decisions boil down to “everyone should live in cities” when cities are historically demographic sinks (lower birthrate), largely because the people who make political decisions live in cities.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#108

Post by tonyedgecombe »

gzread wrote: post #80
ernst_klim wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nearly no one I know in NL and DE works more than 36hrs per week. And we all have a sh”tload of holidays and irregular days off additionally. In DE I would argue that this is due to punitive taxes and I wouldn't call it progress. Poor people work their asses 40+ hours and up to overwork since it's always paid here. White collars work less time and often switch to 4 days because at this tax progression working your…

Is this actually a problem? We all know the average white collar worker doesn't actually work for 40 hours despite being at the office. The average - everywhere - is more like the equivalent of 20 hours of solid focused work per week day. Does more white collar work beyond a threshold produce more value, anyway? Sometimes yes but often no.

I saw this when I worked in Germany. They might not have worked as many hours but they worked hard during those hours.

UK workplaces where much more relaxed in comparison so even though people put in more hours the results were similar.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#109

Post by joe_mamba »

vinaigrette wrote: post #81
ernst_klim wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average person gets no benefit from this You are proving the point. The avg. person gets an enormous benefit from it, even in countries like USA, Japan or Korea with far less generous welfare. The gap in standards of living of somebody in the US and somebody in Georgia or Vietnam are ridiculous.

Poverty levels are roughly the same between Vietnam and the US from a quick search. Mean standard of living is a poor way to calculate inequality. If you have a link to a median one it would help to compare.

>Poverty levels are roughly the same between Vietnam and the US from a quick search.

How is this an argument? A poor person in the US has a massively better standard of living than a poor person in Vietnam.

Poverty is relative. If you have a small apartment in a city of McMansions, you're poor, but if you have a goat in a village of no goats, you're rich.

Re: The Importance of Being Idle

#110

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ernst_klim wrote: post #84
gzread wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually a problem? We all know the average white collar worker doesn't actually work for 40 hours despite being at the office. The average - everywhere - is more like the equivalent of 20 hours of solid focused work per week day. Does more white collar work beyond a threshold produce more value, anyway? Sometimes yes but often no.

> We all know the average white collar worker doesn't actually work for 40 hours despite being at the office. Yes bc now this worker works same 3-4 hours but 4 days instead of 5.

From an employers perspective it would make sense to have people working five six hour days rather than four seven and a half hour days.
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