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Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

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101–110 of 247 posts

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#101
I believe there's a Chicxulub level meteor headed for social media and it's not addiction. It's liability. We, as a society, don't really care about addiction. That's reflected in our government. Gambling, nicotine, alcohol, drugs, etc. Remember with tobacco it was the harm not the addiction that was their undoing.

Core to all of this is what's colloquially become known as The Algorithm. Google in particular has sucessfully propagandized this idea that The Algorithm is a neutral black box over which we have no influence (for search). But every feature and behavior of any kind of recommendation or ranking or news feed algorithm is the result of a human intentionally or negligently creating that behavior.

So one thing most of us here should be aware of is to get more distribution for a post or a video or whatever is through engagement. That is likes, comments, shares, reposts, quotes and so on. All these companies measure those and optimize for engagement.

That sounds neutral and possibly harmless but it's not and I think it's foreseeably not harmless and no doubt there's evidence along the way to demonstrate that harm.

We've seen this with some very harmful ideas that get a lot of traction online. Conspiracy theories, antivaxxer nonsense, doxxing queer people, swatting, the manosphere and of course eating disorders. ED content has a long history on the Internet and you'll find pro-ana or "thinspiration" sites and forums going back to the 1990s.

So I think social media sites are going to have three huge problems going forward:

1. That they knowingly had minors (and children under 13, which matters for COPPA) on their platforms and they profited from that by knowingly or negligently selling those audiences to advertisers;

2. They knew they had harmful content on their platforms but hid Section 230 in particular as simply being the host for third-party content. I believe that shield is going to fail; and

3. They knowingly or negligently pushed that content to children to increase overall engagement.

One clue to all this is you see Mark Zuckerberg who wants to push age verification into the OS. Isn't that weird? The one company that doesn't have an OS thinks the OS should handle that or, more specifically, should be liable for age verification? That's so strange.

In an era where we have LLMs (and the systems that came before) that can analyze posted content (including video) and derive features about that content you don't get to plead ignorance or even user preference. These companies will be held liable for the harm caused by content they distribute.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#102
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they're very, very harmful, to both adults and children. And society as a whole. Even if you don't participate you don't escape the blast radius of the harm they've caused over the past 10-15 years.

My wife and I parental lock each other’s iPhones. I have social media but have to go to my PC to check it. This friction makes a world of difference. I was astounded hanging out with my friends in person last weekend how every one of them at some point pulled out their phone mid conversation to watch TikTok, or Wordle, or whatever. They thought I was the weird one when I mentioned all social media sites and apps are…

I've never felt the need for parental controls, I just refuse to open those sites or install the related apps. Are they really such a draw for you?

At one point I also had a few of them filtered at the DNS level at home, not to restrict my access but rather to defeat any embedded third party requests that might escape my browser filtering.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#103
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely do not know they're addictive. I've lived through this entire story before in the video game wars. People said exactly the same things with exactly the same urgency about Mortal Kombat - what kind of sick society do we live in, where greedy corporations sell you the experience of shooting people and ripping their heads off? Perhaps we have to let adults buy these "murder simulators", but only a disturbed…

Europeans are shocked by the portion sizes in America. But they feel normal in the US. Frogs often don't know they are being boiled.

Frogs actually do know the water is getting hot. They jump out. People too.

That's why we call it addiction when folks struggle with stopping even though they can see the harm in their own actions.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What these corporations were trying to do is bad and vaguely feasible to a degree. I think it's bad enough regulation could apply. But there is an additional consideration that's really important in how we as a society deal with this. Screens are not drugs. They are not somehow uniquely and magically addictive (like drugs actually are). The multi-media is not the problem and not the device to be regulated. The corpor…

Screens are drugs. They are uniquely and magically addictive. Try to take away a kids tablet, a teen's phone, or an adult's phone. They will fight just like an addict.

This is not particularly insightful if you stop and think about it. Try to unilaterally snatch a book that someone is in the middle of reading and you will probably be met with a hostile reaction. Grab the tool someone is using to do a task, similar. What you're describing is the natural reaction to messing with someone else's possessions. Without further context it's blatantly toxic behavior even if you happen to have the authority to force the matter.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol @ "rob them" The outcome followed laws that enable the jury to conclude as they did! So there you go, laws passed. Is this Zuckerberg's burner account?

No, there is no law banning anything these companies did. You know this; that's why you didn't link to the law in your comment. There should be a law banning the addictive practices of these apps. Until there is, fining the companies that make these apps is unjust.

Not how the legal system works.

There are laws enabling the judiciary to operate as it has to give plaintiffs a platform in the first place, in the absence of specific laws because legislative bodies are slow to adopt new laws for various excuses.

For example; not hard to pay off a handful of legislators to vote no. Then what? People just suck up living at the mercy of the rich?

Judiciary has leeway to allow such cases and outcomes to bubble up useful context for changes to law. Longstanding precedent and in some cases is codified in law itself.

The lack of a specific legal language banning social media actions is also irrelevant because of similarities to other situations that are enshrined in law. That human biology is susceptible to psychological manipulation is already well understood. Tiny little difference in legal context does not invalidate known truth of biology.

Society doesn't exist in your head alone and has existed for some time. Much of this is not truly new territory.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#106
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t mention time? From Cambridge dictionary: ‘addiction: an inability to stop doing or using something, especially something harmful.’ I am in support of regulating things which are harmful and which people have trouble not doing

Like potato chips?

If a specially designed endless bag of such were aggressively marketed and chemicals to induce appetite added to them then sure.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#107
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reels are non-stop dopamine hits, just like TikTok. It's incredibly addictive to scroll through. That is by far the worst part of Instagram for anybody. Everything else outside of reels is the usual social media fake life facade, and everything amplified to the max for engagement to get it pushed to feeds via "the algorithm" (note: Interactions don't need to be positive to promote it to feeds)

Some quick Googling tells me Instagram has something like 3B users who spend an average of around 30 minutes a day in the app. Rewind 30 years or so, how long did the typical New York Times subscriber spend with their paper every day? Was the Times addictive? And I won’t even get started on network television for half a century.

"average of 30 minutes" covers a pretty massive range.

Lots of people can get drunk once a month and suffer or cause no real harm. Some people get drunk everyday which is slightly more harmful.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like potato chips?

If a specially designed endless bag of such were aggressively marketed and chemicals to induce appetite added to them then sure.

None of those attributes are necessary beyond those of an ordinary bag of Lays to meet the definition:

“things which are harmful and which people have trouble not doing”

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What these corporations were trying to do is bad and vaguely feasible to a degree. I think it's bad enough regulation could apply. But there is an additional consideration that's really important in how we as a society deal with this. Screens are not drugs. They are not somehow uniquely and magically addictive (like drugs actually are). The multi-media is not the problem and not the device to be regulated. The corpor…

It's not the screen, it's the format. It's an engineered gambling addiction where the currency is time and instead of the house taking your money the arbitrage your time to an advertiser, often surreptitiously.

Worse than that, often times the content that fosters the most engagement borders on propaganda that directly damages the social fabric over time. A lot of the extremist content (left, right, and otherwise) fits this description.

Re: Fear and denial in Silicon Valley over social media addiction trial

#110
post #5

We all know they're addictive, they're designed to be addictive, and they're very, very harmful, to both adults and children. The individuals who are profiting from the harm are clearly identifiable. And that harm directly targets children. That this is allowed to continue is a symptom of a sick society.

Reminds me of soda. Why the hell liquid poison is allowed to exist turns my stomach. You could fill libraries with data linking it to a myriad illnesses and causes of death. Yet they are even allowed to juke it with caffeine for no other reason than to up the addiction level. Like... what are we doing here.
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