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Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

newscientist.com

101–110 of 153 posts

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#101

It's always going to be easier to live underground or under the sea, and you don't see anyone doing that.

Or Antarctica too.

Like, pretty much any of those place has

0) Air at not a near vacuum

1) Liquid water

2) not a lot of radiation

3) appropriate gravity

Why would you want to even live on Mars? You have to essentially live in a very small pressure bunker at some rad-safe depth. Doing so for a little while would be fun and exciting, sure. Homesteading that life? Every one of your kids would opt to leave (if possible) the second they got a chance.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#102
post #27

Folks...The US is effectively bankrupt with a 40 Trillion dollars debt in case you did not notice. The US Treasury is just a few minutes away from an economic event, that will force the US government to spend more than 70% to 80% of tax revenues on servicing said debt. There is no scientific or economic case to even go to Mars, much less colonize it. And with the current advances in robotics and automation there is n…

Better to divert money to space exploration than to use it for war on the only planet we currently have.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#103

Currently reading Blue Mars, the third and final book in the trilogy. It's amazingly fascinating but also exhausting. I say with full seriousness it may be best to read this with a very specific high resolution full color map of Mars on your wall somewhere. If anything KSR is not giving himself as much credit as he deserves, as personal AIs show up in ways that are remarkably salient and similar to what we're current…

Good on you, exhausting is the right word I’d think. Red Mars was the book that killed my enthusiasm for reading for nearly a year. Something about it bored me to tears and yet, I kept reading (my fault) I think I gave up at 60%. I feel like I should like it, I’ve read everything my Neal Stephenson so I’m not averse to hefty books

I think I was in a similar boat and where in doubt, I think I powered through for completionist sake. But it's possible you paused right before some of the most interesting stuff in the whole book.

It's not a spoiler to note that the it begins with a flash forward that talks about the fate of a major character. Some of the most interesting stuff starts happening to them and it comes full circle in a way that leads up to that flash forward. And mercifully the constant mentions of regolith lessen the deeper into the series you get.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#104

When this topic comes up I always think of this movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waydowntown

That was a great movie - I lived there, worked downtown and was an avid user of the +15 system when that movie came out...

It's one of those movies that keeps sneaking into my brain. I might watch it again (I saw it in theaters when it came out, and once soon after) or just leave the mistiness of those brain cycles stay as they are.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#105
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very bad-faith take of Musk's stated plans. Which is great for sound bites, but there is enough wrong with a good-faith interpretation of his plans that this is entirely unnecessary. He is not arguing in good faith here

And you are going to explain why instead of just stating an opinion...since an opinion is not an argument...right?

For starters "Terraforming Mars" is not a prominent feature of Musk's Mars plans. He's repeatedly stated that it's possible to do so, but the things he's consistently said he wants to do are to establish a Mars colony and turn it self-sufficient. Then maybe terraforming as a long-term goal, but the success of his mars colony does not depend on terraforming at all.

On his whole "if you can terraforming Mars, you can terraforming Earth" I would remind you that Musk's ideas for terraforming Mars include "let's nuke the poles", "we could heat the soil to release more CO2" and "after releasing a lot of CO2, we could electrolyze the water in the ice caps to get oxygen". The challenges for reversing global warming on Earth and terraforming Mars are almost polar opposites

deGrasse's most reasonable point is that the ROI of the whole Mars plan is terrible. Probably not zero (selling flights and accommodations for tourists and science institutes is the easy one). But Musk has said he does not want to finance the Mars plan with VC money, for the exact reasons deGrasse is pointing out. Musk's claim isn't that he's doing it because it's profitable but because it's "geopolitically expedient" as deGrasse puts it. How this squares with the recent news of a SpaceX IPO I don't know, but that wasn't a factor back in 2024

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#106
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Mars robots are awesome, but they take years to accomplish what astronauts could do in days. Our latest and greatest model (Perseverance) has traveled 40km (25mi) in 5 years, with the support of a scout helicopter. Which is more than what Curiosity managed in 13 years. But that's approximately what they did in Apollo 17 in five hours. Granted, Apollo 17 didn't make quite as many stops to analyze rocks, but it sho…

Those robots were designed 20 years ago... You can send now a whole swarm of humanoid robots, that would recharge 24x7 out of a KRUSTY Reactor [1], you did not even had LLMs then. [1] - https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20205009350/downloads/03...

No, we really can't send something like that now. Or at least not if we want it to be useful on arrival.

I'll make an educated guess that, as of this moment, there are zero functioning swarms of humanoid robots recharging on such a reactor on Earth.

Once we add radiation shielding, software and hardware reliability, landing (marsing?) it all safely and deploying it (among others) I wouldn't be surprised if the earliest arrival time is, unsurprisingly, 20 years in the future.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#107

Between the realism about terraforming Mars and the strong likelihood that faster-than-light travel may never happen, is anyone else feeling a bit melancholic? It feels like a possible future has been taken away from us.

A late uncle of mine did his thesis at Arizona on the practical limitations of interstellar travel.

The TLDR of it is that teenagers suck.

They assumed the physics of those days (mostly unchanged) and no faster than light travel [0] and that you can't reasonably cryo-sleep a human or grow them on site[1].

From that, you follow the logic and if you want to run a ship out to some star, it's going to take a long ass time. So much so that you have to have kids, a 'generation' ship. And that's where the trouble starts. Because teenagers are going to teenager, they just will not trust you when you say that the outside of their very little world is deadly. And then when you get there, it's going to take a lot of convincing to reprogram them to jump out and start colonizing.

The only solution is to build a really big spaceship. He reasoned that it's usable surface area needed to be about that of Japan [2]. So you get to a Stanford Torus or the like. That's when you can finally 'trust' that the people living on this thing wont blow up halfway there and can remain 'stable' enough over the (possibly) millennia of travel.

The issue, of course, is that you'd just build all these things for use in the Sol system anyway - why bother traveling?

Something something new lands something exploration something.

Okay, so, like, the end result is that putting human on a new planet in another system is just not happening when you really take a look. That was the essential conclusion to the thesis.

It's too hard, teenagers suck too much, and the 'cheaper' alternatives are too good.

[0] He made a great point that you should not assume that our modern understanding of physics should remain the same when doing really long term calculations like this. We have advanced so much in our knowledge and likely the understandings of other fields will compound much faster in the future.

[1] Same for biology, but they had to start somewhere.

[2] this assumption is a bit much for me even today, but the steps he takes are sound. You can argue them down a lot though, I feel.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#108
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a lot of good futures that involve things being better on Earth

Good futures, sure. But not as cool . No Tannhauser Gate, no Kessel Run.

are you equally upset that Harry Potter isn’t real?

I don’t mean to come across as rude, I just can’t really understand what you mean unless you’re saying that you’re sad magic isn’t real

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#109
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only advantage of terraforming Mars is that if you do it wrong you're not making it worse for anybody that lives there. It could be a good test bench if it wasn't for the elephant in the room: it takes a very long time to terraform a planet

There's also the tiny detail that we are technologically incapable at the moment.

Well, that's why it's a good idea to have a place to try things out, so we can learn.

But of course, doing that is highly impractical for many other reasons.

Re: Author of Red Mars calls 'bullshit' on emigrating to the planet

#110
post #99
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no scientific or economic case to even go to Mars Nonsense. Just going to Mars with humans creates economic activity, and the R&D to do so, adds to scientific knowledge. If you want to argue against going into further debt to do so, well, that's a different argument. One I agree with.

We are not in a meeting at SpaceX trying to please Elon. I dont think you realize what you are up against...Do you know what radiation does to humans? For example Suni Williams went to the ISS and got stuck for 9 months. Come back white haired, with bone loss, muscle wasting, and vision damage. She retired from NASA within months. And the ISS is inside Earth magnetosphere... FYI Mars has no magnetic field and almost…

SpaceX already shifted to focus on a Moon base and away from Mars.

The original plan was to send a few self-financed Starships to Mars as a first step which sounded reasonable as an experiment.

Nothing wrong with dreaming about solving hard problems like radiation and how to manage logistics at such a distance. Even if a human base ends up not making sense most of that stuff would still support a robotic base doing most of the exploration, with some temporary human visitors helping set things up.

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