Washington voters approve legalized marijuana • Hacker News Board

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#101

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 8:15 PM UTC

sethrin wrote: post #97

dreamdu5t wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is a protection racket. Laws against weed violate the sovereignty of hte individual. It's absurd that the primary argument is tax revenue. Really shows how whacked politics and American's conception of government is.

What is "individual sovereignty"? Rights are granted not by God, not by some internal edict. They come from the society you inhabit. The world of sovereign individuals is wonderful in objectivist fantasies. In reality, it results in anarchy, for a brief moment before one strongman clubs another over the head, and two other people decide to team up against their neighbors. Even casting aside the concept of civilizatio…

They don't come from the society - otherwise there's nothing wrong with slavery, if only society condones it. If you want to claim the society is wrong and slavery is bad, you need to find some reason why. If the reason of "I don't like it" does not sound convincing to you, you'd have to find some principles that lie beyond the customs of the society. It doesn't have to be God's will, but it has to be something. Society can only follow these principles or violate them, and according to that be a good society or bad society. But it can not be the source of it - unless you are willing to concede slavery was perfectly fine, while society accepted it.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#102

Post by speleding » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 8:16 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #77

lukeschlather wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue here is that our medical care system is totally screwed. At the end of the day, if no one else can, the state has to pay for emergency care. I voted for the marijuana bill, but the contra argument is pretty persuasive at least from a money standpoint. Marijuana use will probably at least double as a result of this bill. Unfortunately, this has a real cost to society. There's not a lot of quality data o…

> Marijuana use will probably at least double as a result of this bill. Unfortunately, this has a real cost to society. There's not a lot of quality data on the health effects of regular pot use, but what I've read says it's something of a mix of the effects of alcoholism and cigarette addiction. This is going to have a real dollar cost to the state unless we can fix our healthcare system before people who start taki…

> Cannabis does not have a physical addiction characteristic

The evidence for a link between Cannabis and increased risk of psychosis is increasing [1]. A patient with psychosis rarely recovers and is extremely costly to society over his lifetime (as well as a personal tragedy, of course). I'm in favour of legalisation but it is something to take into account.

[1] http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/content/articl...

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#103

Post by bitwize » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 8:35 PM UTC

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #39

ComputerGuru wrote: post #8

I'm not someone who would take advantage of the legalization of marijuana, but I am in favor of legalization because I don't think it's the government's job to tell you what you can or can't do. If drinking is legal, smoking weed should be too. I understand the concept behind a tax on marijuana, but I don't understand a 25% tax on every stage of the process... If you're saying that it's legal to use marijuana respons…

> I don't see the point of a whole 25% tax on top of that. I would like to point out that a 25% tax on legally produced marijuana is very low . A 500% tax would still be low. Considering the amounts consumed, growing marijuana is really easy and cheap. Without the legislation against it, when grown in volume by professionals it should have a cost per kg nearing that of hydroponic cabbage, or some 1000 times less than…

growing marijuana is really easy and cheap.

Well, they call it "weed" for a reason. :)

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#104

Post by graysnorf » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

xiaoma wrote: post #92

ComputerGuru wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the 25% tax might still end up being lower than the total (state + federal) taxes levied on cigarettes in many places. I'm sure the government will want their cut soon enough, then it'll be 25% state tax + whatever the federal government decides to charge. As it is, no one is mentioning the fact that states can't truly decide whether to legalize marijuana because at the end of the day, the federal government has legi…

> " states can't truly decide whether to legalize marijuana because at the end of the day, the federal government has legislation that supersedes local/state regulations in this manner"* Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the ninth amendment say pretty much the opposite of this?

The USFG gets jurisdiction from the commerce clause.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#105

Post by r00fus » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #93

ComputerGuru wrote: post #8

I'm not someone who would take advantage of the legalization of marijuana, but I am in favor of legalization because I don't think it's the government's job to tell you what you can or can't do. If drinking is legal, smoking weed should be too. I understand the concept behind a tax on marijuana, but I don't understand a 25% tax on every stage of the process... If you're saying that it's legal to use marijuana respons…

Government doesn't need to be bribed, voters do. It is pretty much "if you potheads want us to not put you to jail, there should be something in it for us too". Ideally, people should not be paying bribes to be able to do something that harms nobody and is their own private business. However, in the messed up world of American politics, it is what it takes - nobody cares about your freedom, but if you sweeten the dea…

So you're saying there will be no costs in enforcing safe usage of pot? What are the societal costs of (to use alcohol analogy) driving while stoned? What about rehab?

The public, through the government, effectively pays for this, and taxing the activity can alleviate or mitigate those costs.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#106

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:06 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #100

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see the point of a whole 25% tax on top of that. I would like to point out that a 25% tax on legally produced marijuana is very low . A 500% tax would still be low. Considering the amounts consumed, growing marijuana is really easy and cheap. Without the legislation against it, when grown in volume by professionals it should have a cost per kg nearing that of hydroponic cabbage, or some 1000 times less than…

That doesn't mean the tax is low. Cabbage is grown like cabbage, and it doesn't have 25% tax on it. And what is 500% tax? You pay 4x your revenue for the right to grow marijuana? It's not a tax then, it's prohibitive fine.

500% tax is isn't 4x revenue. Either the consumer pays the tax, so its 4x the product cost, or the vendor pays it, and prices the tax into the sale price, so the tax us 83% of revenue.

Take an example: water costs 2cents/gallon. a 500% tax would make water 10cents a gallon. That would be enough to promote agressive conservation, but not prohibitively expensive.

Soda costs $1/pint, for 500% markup. Yet it's not prohibitve, because the baseline is sooooo cheap.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#107

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:09 PM UTC

Firehed wrote: post #26

Kadin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is marijuana bad and the government needs to bribed to let it? "The government", no; but many voters, yes. There are a lot of people who don't use cannabis and don't have any interest in whether or not it's legal, but are swayed by the potential tax revenues. It was the bargain necessary to get the votes to pass it. Perhaps in the future the tax rate will be stepped down if it's really felt to be excessive or if th…

If people don't care either way, they should be swayed by the massive cost savings by significantly reducing the scope of the war on drugs and the associated legal and penitentiary costs. I'm not opposed to taxing it like alcohol or perhaps cigarettes (especially as a non-user) but 25% seems a bit crazy. Of course it may still end up cheaper to buyers. But if that's the cost of progress, fine. Two steps forward and o…

Note that state law has no effect on the War on Drugs, which is a Federal effort. The feds have still been harassing marijuana growers/users that are in no violation of state or local law.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#108

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:09 PM UTC

Firehed wrote: post #26

Kadin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is marijuana bad and the government needs to bribed to let it? "The government", no; but many voters, yes. There are a lot of people who don't use cannabis and don't have any interest in whether or not it's legal, but are swayed by the potential tax revenues. It was the bargain necessary to get the votes to pass it. Perhaps in the future the tax rate will be stepped down if it's really felt to be excessive or if th…

If people don't care either way, they should be swayed by the massive cost savings by significantly reducing the scope of the war on drugs and the associated legal and penitentiary costs. I'm not opposed to taxing it like alcohol or perhaps cigarettes (especially as a non-user) but 25% seems a bit crazy. Of course it may still end up cheaper to buyers. But if that's the cost of progress, fine. Two steps forward and o…

Note that state law has no effect on the War on Drugs, which is a Federal effort. The feds have still been harassing marijuana growers/users that are in no violation of state or local law.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#109

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:13 PM UTC

speleding wrote: post #102

king_jester wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marijuana use will probably at least double as a result of this bill. Unfortunately, this has a real cost to society. There's not a lot of quality data on the health effects of regular pot use, but what I've read says it's something of a mix of the effects of alcoholism and cigarette addiction. This is going to have a real dollar cost to the state unless we can fix our healthcare system before people who start taki…

> Cannabis does not have a physical addiction characteristic The evidence for a link between Cannabis and increased risk of psychosis is increasing [1]. A patient with psychosis rarely recovers and is extremely costly to society over his lifetime (as well as a personal tragedy, of course). I'm in favour of legalisation but it is something to take into account. [1] http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/content…

"link".

From that article:

"""Conclusions Despite all of the uncertainties surrounding the cannabis-psychosis link... The evidence suggests that cannabis is associated with an increased risk of psychosis when it is used frequently. Whether cannabis can trigger a primary psychotic disorder that would not have otherwise occurred is unclear.

However, in most individuals who use cannabis, psychosis does not develop, which suggests that the increased risk must be related to other vulnerability factors (genetics, frequency, or age of onset of cannabis misuse)."""

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#110

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:15 PM UTC

Firehed wrote: post #96

pstuart wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously more people will try it if it is legal, but it's pretty ubiquitous now and most adults have already had the chance to sample and decide. As for the "cost to society", I have to imagine that any damage from use (and there's not much evidence for it) would be countered by the decrease in real damage done by the War on Drugs.

I doubt that. How many people try cigarettes for the first time the day they turn 18 or alcohol at 21? Anecdotally at least, people first try these substances when they want to, not when it's legal for them to do so. I can't imagine this being significantly different for marijuana - it's already so easy to obtain as an illegal substance.

Anecdotally, alcohol and cigarettes are substantially more widely exposed to minors than marijauna is. That will likely change when everyone's older brother can pick up a bag at the store.