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Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

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Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#101

Post by pavel_lishin »

danielweber wrote: post #81
weaksauce wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronic voting should be allowed but not unless it prints out a ballot with all your selections on it so you can verify and have a real paper trail; not some bit in a database that can be changed and most likely has been changed in the past based on grand jury testimony from one of the diebold programmers. As a programmer knowing how insecure programs are I want paper for something like this.

I've used this machine in another state, and it absolutely generates a paper trail. There is a rolling receipt going on the left-hand side of the machine behind glass that records every single button press you do, and scrolls out of view when you complete voting so the next guy can't see it. It's not perfect, and not my preferred system, but it's pretty decent.

I'd prefer to keep a receipt for myself, with a randomly generated serial number on it, so at some point I could verify that the digital record of my vote #158FA134 matches the paper receipt and who I voted for.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#102

Post by danielweber »

cloudwalking wrote: post #80

I am a red-blooded technologist, but I think voting should be done on paper ballots. Call me a luddite, but it's just too easy to manipulate votes--either at the time of voting or in post-processing--with an electronic voting machine. That being said, the only conceivable way to have a secure electronic voting process is to use a completely open source system. Open source hardware and software, with publicly viewable…

If your plan to secure the machines is to have the source be open, you have already failed. You need a system that works well even if the source has been altered.

Paper ballots have issues, too. They are different issues, and largely unseen by the general public until you have a really close election and have to use human judgment to decide whether that mark counts as a vote or not.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#103

Post by sharkweek »

swang wrote: post #51
jneal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my thought exactly. If someone was going through the trouble of altering votes, it would make no sense to make note of this within UI elements, it could just as easily "secretly" change the votes for 1/8 (just my theoretical magical number) voters and alter the results just enough without being noticeable.

Except this just frustrates the voter and maybe he doesn't bother voting for Obama at all. There's no accusation of "altering" the votes because how do you track, "Touchscreen didn't select Obama, voter just gave up?"

Donning my tin foil hat for a minute here -- I think if I were to try and attempt to commit voter fraud through the machines, I'd make it this obvious intentionally so it seemed like a legitimate accident to those who noticed; "It's too obvious to be fraud"

It would probably cause a small dent and shift by people who don't notice or are confused (elderly).

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#104

Post by genwin »

danielweber wrote: post #88
btilly wrote: post #77

There have been problems like this in every election with these machines. More troubling, exit polls and voting results have routinely disagreed with each other since 2000. In most countries that would be taken as proof that the election was not fair. But not in the USA! http://www.ukprogressive.co.uk/breaking-retired-nsa-analyst-... claims evidence of systemic manipulation of the vote, with the trend strongly being…

exit polls and voting results have routinely disagreed with each other since 2000. In most countries that would be taken as proof that the election was not fair It's absolutely not proof. It's, at the least, evidence. Exit polls are statistical -- in my dozens of times voting, I've never hit an exit pollster. But if you say "the exit polls disagree with the official numbers, so let's go with the exit polls" you have…

Statistics tells you the odds that the exit poll would disagree by some degree with the actual result. If the odds show, for example, only a 1 in a 100 million chance of it happening, an investigation should take place. That you've never hit an exit pollster doesn't say much, because the odds can be computed with high confidence by polling only a tiny fraction of the voters.

Statistics is highly valuable despite not being proof. For example, it's a foregone conclusion that Obama will win today, based on earlier polls. It's not certain that he'll win, but the odds of him losing are nil, the stats show.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#105

Post by baltimore »

marshallp wrote: post #89
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's very strange that it was "miscalibrated" to not select one particular candidate, no? :) The internet loves Obama. There are many stories of people that support Obama cheating the system (right now there's a popular story of someone admitting on Facebook to voting for Obama 4 times...) and that isn't on the front page of HN, when that is absolutely confirmed to be a misuse of the system. Everything that is…

The republicans are the party of liars. Who is more likely to actually commit these crimes? Republicans. Even the 4 votes thing you came up with is probably republicans spreading lies.

Seriously? Why are you even here (HN)? This place does not suffer trolls lightly.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#106

Post by grecy »

pnathan wrote: post #34
morsch wrote: post #4

The shenanigans you seem to tolerate during elections are just incomprehensible to us foreigners. The number of horror stories I've heard in the last couple of weeks regarding everything from just weirdness of the system to blatant manipulation is farcical. It's possible that I'm getting a bleaker picture than reality, I suppose, since I only read about the broken stuff and not the instances where everything just wor…

(1) We have > 300 M people. That's a huge population. (2) We are OK publicizing it. (3) Probability would indicate that we'll have a certain error, and it'll be shouted about. --- But it's very strange that it was "miscalibrated" to not select one particular candidate, no? :)

> (1) We have > 300 M people. That's a huge population.

It's hilarious when Americans use that as an excuse for things being sub-par in their country. I see it all the time for health care, roads, schools etc.

Yes, your country has lots of people in it, but it also takes in an enormous amount of tax, and has enormous government agencies to organize this kind of thing. Everything should scale up appropriately, but you guys have no figured that out yet.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#107

Post by jetti »

citricsquid wrote: post #32
baddox wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anyone actually think that IF this machine was altering votes, it would alter it in this fashion with a UI element tied to the alteration I think you mean if the machine was intentionally designed to alter votes, it wouldn't do it in this fashion. The article doesn't even hint that this might be done on purpose.

> The article doesn't even hint that this might be done on purpose. Altering is an action, not something passive. If a machine is altering votes then it must be doing that intentionally. What is happening here is the person interacting with this machine is interacting in such a way that makes the machine believe he is pressing elsewhere on the screen. The title reads as if the machine is doing something, the reality…

>Altering is an action, not something passive.

I disagree. If this person decided to walk away because of confusion/frustration/etc, then it would've been one less vote cast and would have altered that individuals vote. It wasn't intentional, but a software/hardware bug.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#108

Post by TallGuyShort »

marshallp wrote: post #89
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's very strange that it was "miscalibrated" to not select one particular candidate, no? :) The internet loves Obama. There are many stories of people that support Obama cheating the system (right now there's a popular story of someone admitting on Facebook to voting for Obama 4 times...) and that isn't on the front page of HN, when that is absolutely confirmed to be a misuse of the system. Everything that is…

The republicans are the party of liars. Who is more likely to actually commit these crimes? Republicans. Even the 4 votes thing you came up with is probably republicans spreading lies.

Yeah - politicians who happen to agree with you must obviously not be lying.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#109

Post by robomartin »

marshallp wrote: post #89
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's very strange that it was "miscalibrated" to not select one particular candidate, no? :) The internet loves Obama. There are many stories of people that support Obama cheating the system (right now there's a popular story of someone admitting on Facebook to voting for Obama 4 times...) and that isn't on the front page of HN, when that is absolutely confirmed to be a misuse of the system. Everything that is…

The republicans are the party of liars. Who is more likely to actually commit these crimes? Republicans. Even the 4 votes thing you came up with is probably republicans spreading lies.

Be careful, your intelligence is showing.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#110

Post by runjake »

moultano wrote: post #55
jarek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar reaction. The regulations on what is required to vote differ between states?! Cities run polling stations?! David Frum weighing in: http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/05/opinion/frum-election-chaos/in...

The US is schizophrenic about whether it wants to be one country or not.

s/country/republic/

Opinions on whether something should be handled at state vs federal seems to ebb and flow in great proportions in the US.

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