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Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

poetryfoundation.org

101–110 of 116 posts

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#101
The Zombies recorded "Butcher's Tale" [1][2], which I believe is a derivative of this but good in its own right.

My French language teacher at one college or other told me a story once. I might be getting some of the details wrong, so forgive me. But here goes:

In 1914 or thereabouts, his grandfather, a young French man, had just graduated from lycée or whatever and celebrated by backpacking around Europe, staying in youth hostels, riding trains, etc. He drank a lot of alcohol, made a lot of new friends, and generally had a great time.

In Germany, he wandered into a pub, encountered some friendly Germans, and joined them at a table. One drink turned into three, or five, or six, and the young Frenchman started attempting to speak the German spoken by his new friends. Perhaps he had a gift for languages, perhaps he'd picked up a little through some other means, perhaps the disinhibitory effect of alcohol helped his short-term recall for syntax and semantics.

Either way, the result was the same - the young Frenchman climbed up onto a table and made a brief, impromptu speech in German, addressed to his new friends, full of affection, extolling the virtues of modernity, goodwill and brotherhood, etc.

The rest of the pub was absolutely _alarmed_ by the young Frenchman's grasp of German. There was no way, they thought, that he could speak German so well. He must be a spy. The police were called, and he was thrown in jail.

Then the war broke out, and returning the young man to France was not anyone's concern. He spent the war locked up in Germany.

I can repeat that story, but I can't personally vouch for it. It's hearsay three or four times removed. It's a funny story, a little awful, but he's free in the end. Everything worked out.

But the awful punchline is something I do tend to believe - that his grandfather was the only survivor of all of the young men from his graduating class. Every other one died in the war.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xy0htPZZPs [2] https://genius.com/The-zombies-butchers-tale-western-front-1...

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#102
post #87

I was bothered by the fact that the English poem doesn't scan correctly. This prompted me to look up the ode, and I can't figure out the Latin meter. Does anyone know? https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...

Metrum Alcaicum: dul.cet.de.co:.rest.|pro:.pa.tri.a:.mo.ri: mor.set.fu.ga:.cem.|per.se.qui.tur.vi.rum nec.par.ci.tin.bel.li:s.iu.ven.tae po:pli.ti.bus.ti.mi.do:.que.ter.go (Not sure about the first syllable of "poplitibus": muta cum liquida and long "o"?) Reading it like in school (with qualitative stress marking the quantitative meter), that would be: dulcét decórest | pró patriá morí morsét fugácem | pérsequitúr vi…

Thanks!

Minor note: I was taught that forms of esse are weak enough that they lose their vowel to elision, so it would be de.co:.rust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodelision

This seems like it would never matter for esse or est, but I guess it could preserve a long vowel in a case like -V: es V-.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#103
post #6

Owen died 7 days before the end of the war. A highly fictionalised but very evocative account of Owen, Sassoon, Hughes and the Craiglockhart medical facility that Owen stayed at (recuperating from PTSD) is in Pat Barker's 'Regeneration" Trilogy

This poem also owes its existence to W.H.R. Rivers. He was a notable individual. His early research was in anthropology and neurology. He was a key figure in the early treatment of what is now called PTSD, and a lead medical officer at Craiglockhart.

Another poem from Craiglockhart is Sassoon's "Repression of War Experience." It is one of the relatively uncommon works, both as literature and clinically, that depicts the sensory experience associated with PTSD. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/57267/repression-of-w...

Incidentally, Rivers himself also wrote a paper titled "The Repression of War Experience." It was published in The Lancet around the same time. https://archive.is/EZerl

A century later, I believe the poet's attempt was more successful than the scientist's in sharing the data.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#104
Just as an FYI, if anyone is into reading some good poems, I'd recommend "Good Poems", an anthology edited by Garrison Keillor. It's a great book to start reading poetry.

I had a friend who was reading it, and she loaned it to me, and it got me much more into poetry. I read the intro and was hooked. The whole series is pretty good, too.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#105
post #99

Sharing my beloved ancient Chinese poem 山坡羊·潼关怀古 张养浩 峰峦如聚,波涛如怒,山河表里潼关路。望西都,意踌躇。 伤心秦汉经行处,宫阙万间都做了土。兴,百姓苦;亡,百姓苦。 Tune: “Sheep on the Hillside” —Tong Pass Zhang Yanghao Translated by Wayne Schlepp Peaks as if massed, Waves that look angry, Along the mountains and the river lies the road to Tong Pass. I look to the West Capital, My thoughts unsettled. Here, where the Qin and Han armies passed, I lament The ten thousand pa…

Do not call me, father, do not seek me, Do not call me, do not wish me back. We’re on a route uncharted, fire and blood erase our tracks. On we fly, on wings of thunder, never more to sheath our swords. All of us in battle fallen, not to be brought back by words. Will there be a rendezvous? I know not. I only know we still must fight. We are sand grains in infinity, never to meet,never more see light. Farewell then m…

    At the starting of the week
    At summit talks you'll hear 
    them speak
    It's only Monday

    You could be sitting, 
    taking lunch
    The news will hit you like 
    a punch
    It's only Tuesday

    We'll all go running 
    underground
    And we'll be listening for 
    the sound
    It's only Wednesday

    You'll hear a whistling 
    overhead
    Are you alive or are you 
    dead?
    It's only Thursday

    Though that shelter is your 
    home
    The living space, you have 
    outgrown
    It's only Friday

    Tomorrow never comes until 
    it's too late
Six Day War (Colonel Bagshot)

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#106
Logan Skelton, a music professor at the University of Michigan, really made be find profundity in this poem, not just for its message, but also its construction. I was blown away by his video about it [1]. Really, it was a mind-blown thing for me. I really recommend watching it, it's reasonably short, but the TL;DR is that the meter and choice of silence can be interpreted as meaningfully as the words and context in which it was written.

[1] https://youtu.be/DiCXBn18XYw?t=3m35s

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#107
post #87

I was bothered by the fact that the English poem doesn't scan correctly. This prompted me to look up the ode, and I can't figure out the Latin meter. Does anyone know? https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...

Metrum Alcaicum: dul.cet.de.co:.rest.|pro:.pa.tri.a:.mo.ri: mor.set.fu.ga:.cem.|per.se.qui.tur.vi.rum nec.par.ci.tin.bel.li:s.iu.ven.tae po:pli.ti.bus.ti.mi.do:.que.ter.go (Not sure about the first syllable of "poplitibus": muta cum liquida and long "o"?) Reading it like in school (with qualitative stress marking the quantitative meter), that would be: dulcét decórest | pró patriá morí morsét fugácem | pérsequitúr vi…

> Not sure about the first syllable of "poplitibus"

Lewis and Short doesn't mark that o short or long. This also occurred with vexo, which I assumed was because the first syllable of anything starting with vex- is necessarily long (because the 'x' is two non-liquid consonants).

In the case of poples, 'l' is a liquid and a short vowel could be revealed by the syllabification po-ples (or po-pli-), but I guess this is never attested? This verse can't answer the question because the syllable is allowed to be long.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#108
Very fitting for this fresh war that is being celebrated and propagandized by mass murderers. I wonder whether it would make a difference to any of them if they had to read this. I have my doubts.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#110

You've got to die of something; so you might as well die for something but your country isn't the best thing to die for. The problem with your country (at least the vast majority of countries) is that it doesn't care about you. It's just too big to care. It has almost nothing to do with you. I can't wrap my mind around the fact that people feel some affiliation with their country. For the vast majority of people, the…

> You've got to die of something; so you might as well die for something

It's very easy to die "for something" when you're already dying. The question is how much of your life you're willing to give up for something by dying right now.

People talk about "dying for your country" as if it's all one and the same, but some people die for the people in their country and some people merely die for the interests of their state.

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