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Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

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Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don’t pass savings to consumers, competition does. Why should American voters pay more for everything so that SWEs can be paid exorbitantly? I shouldn’t need to explain to you why protectionism is bad. There’s 200 years of economic research on this and it shows that protectionism always backfires.

You're just regurgitating old arguments which were once used to persuade Americans that outsourcing manufacturing to China was in America's best interest. Few Americans still find this persuasive, you can find senile babyboomers who still profess these kind of beliefs, but that's about it. Besides, in trying to formulate an explaination for how offshoring is actually in America's interests, aren't you tacitly acknowl…

The old arguments were right. Americans live materially better lives than anyone else. People are disenchanted because of the things that can’t be outsourced (housing, education, healthcare) have become so expensive.

The America First doctrine, in practice, has meant using power to do things that nominally appear in our interest, but don’t account for the second and third order effects. ie bully allied nations into accepting high tariffs without reciprocating, which doesn’t account for our own industries being hurt by higher input prices, a new reluctance to enter the US market, less competition, etc.

Protecting US workers from competition nominally helps those select workers, but it also makes them uncompetitive, steers businesses from setting up shop here at all, makes things more expensive for US consumers, and reduces innovation and upskilling.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#102
post #23

> If tech talent can’t come to the U.S., American companies will go where the talent is. LOL! They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. IIRC, my employer stopped offering new H1-B sponsorships in most cases, after they opened an office in India (10+ years ago). They didn't open the office because they had a hard time hiring in the US. They opened it because the…

The language people use is funny. When companies offshore skilled factory jobs to foreign countries, they call that "offshoring." But when it comes to programmers, they call it "going where the talent is." They act like programmers are in a different class than machinists.

Funny, is not really the term I think of. The common denominator of it has always been manipulative and abusive lying. The parasitic ruling class of psychopaths has always used rather basic and typical abusive patterns like dividing, disparate qualifications, constantly moving targets, refusing success, leading on with promises, evading responsibility and especially consequences, often with yet more abuse and even enlisting others to expand and validate the abuse.

Just alone "going where the talent is" itself is just plain out abusive and narcissistic behavior typical of the worst people, it's clearly not the parasitic ruling class or their parasitic abusiveness ... it's you, that you are not "talented", you are not "worthy" now that they have sucked and drained all they can get from you for decades and generations with all the other euphemistic language like "offshoring" instead of "wanting to profit at your expense but externalize the costs onto you too".

So you did this to yourself ... don't you know... because you are simply not talented enough and now you made the parasites have to go seek the talent elsewhere ... see what you did to the parasites who only just want to do right by you?

Humanity really needs to gain a far greater understanding of what narcissism is, how to identify it, how to resist and stand against it, how to counter it, and even how to utterly destroy and eradicate it and anyone who does it from society.

Many people simply don't even really understand what it is let alone how pernicious and subtle it is in its subversion; but it is utterly destructive, subversive, and parasitic for all of humanity. If we self-eradicate human life on this planet it will 100% be due to our inability to control narcissists like the people who say things like "going where the talent is". Just alone saying that kind of thing is utterly abusive and should be considered treason, because it is... betrayal.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#103
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. I read these sentiments, and I honestly don’t understand the tone. This kind of behavior is exactly what you’d expect after taking just a few introductory undergraduate economics courses. Free markets are predicated on the free movement of capital and labor, and American companies being able to go overseas for cheaper…

>> They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. > I read these sentiments, and I honestly don’t understand the tone. This kind of behavior is exactly what you’d expect after taking just a few introductory undergraduate economics courses. You'll notice I was responding to something I quoted. They claim they're taking action X because of Y, when they're actually tak…

Gotcha, looks like I misread what you were saying.

> Also, the eight most terrifying words in the English language "I just took few introductory undergraduate economics courses..."

Fair enough, but I at least have a whole degree in it. :)

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#104
post #82

> If tech talent can’t come to the U.S., American companies will go where the talent is. LOL! They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. IIRC, my employer stopped offering new H1-B sponsorships in most cases, after they opened an office in India (10+ years ago). They didn't open the office because they had a hard time hiring in the US. They opened it because the…

> They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. I read these sentiments, and I honestly don’t understand the tone. This kind of behavior is exactly what you’d expect after taking just a few introductory undergraduate economics courses. Free markets are predicated on the free movement of capital and labor, and American companies being able to go overseas for cheaper…

I'm not the person you replied to but I don't see how your comment relates to his, I mean, did you reply to the wrong comment? Do you understand the difference between "talent" and "cheap labor"?

> Generally speaking, I’m really shocked at how uneducated people are — programmers in particular — about how the labor market works, how the economy works, or how anything in the real world works, really.

You provided zero evidence for any of these sins in the comment you replied to. I'm kind of shocked how economists get shocked out of thin air, it seems they make everything out of thin but highly compressed air.

> There's a reason studying humanities is valuable - history, philosophy, economics, etc.

There's a reason why people avoid these - in their present form, they provide zero practical value and even worse, teaching them amounts mainly to shamanistic incantations designed to confuse and hide the truth -e.g. BS about "talent" when the issue is "cheap labor".

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End of the day, given roughly equivalent talent availability, cheaper is where companies go. Maybe some will call it "cost discrimination" or something just as strange, but the many will know it as "sound business strategy".

That doesn't explain away all the H-1B hires though, who move to places where the pay must be drastically higher than my asking rate. Edit: Turns out if you hire an H-1B you must pay them a higher rate, it cannot be lower just because they're H-1B, so they're definitely making way more than I would have asked for. If cost is the factor, then either HR departments are stupid, or some other shenanigans is going on. I'v…

I agree that there are many companies that hire H-1B (and other non-immigrant visa holders) over equally qualified US citizens and permanent residents in order to pay less, work them harder, etc.

But, I often see this presented as all or nearly all that is going on. There are lots of non-immigrant visa holders who get hired who are better qualified then 90+% of others, and are getting the same pay and conditions and their American teammates. These people are improving the employment prospects for Americans, not hurting them.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone believes they're entitled to them. However, in my opinion, if these companies want to continue to enjoy preferable tax treatment and the deregulated environment the US provides them, then they should be expected to hire people in the US to drive the US economy. If they're not going to do that, then we (meaning the Government both state and federal) should stop incentivizing them. Why would we giv…

> stop incentivizing them And at that point they simply... shift the bulk of their operations somewhere that still gives incentives, and maybe just leave a lightly-staffed satellite office in the US.

That's great. They should do that then. They're not providing value to the US economy at that point. They're purely extracting value from it. They should leave.

Of course, in reality, they never actually leave because the vast majority of their profits is from the American economy.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#107
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. I read these sentiments, and I honestly don’t understand the tone. This kind of behavior is exactly what you’d expect after taking just a few introductory undergraduate economics courses. Free markets are predicated on the free movement of capital and labor, and American companies being able to go overseas for cheaper…

I'm not the person you replied to but I don't see how your comment relates to his, I mean, did you reply to the wrong comment? Do you understand the difference between "talent" and "cheap labor"? > Generally speaking, I’m really shocked at how uneducated people are — programmers in particular — about how the labor market works, how the economy works , or how anything in the real world works, really. You provided zero…

To clarify, I agree the issue is "cheap labor," not "talent." My previous comment was built on that premise.

I was pointing out that capital seeking lower wages is a standard economic outcome and my surprise was directed at how often folks in the tech industry seem caught off guard by basic profit-maximizing behavior. That's just what companies do and they are expected to do so.

Regarding the value of studying economics: it provides the exact framework needed to see past corporate PR. When companies claim they are offshoring for "talent," basic economics gives you the analytical tools to quickly recognize that the real motivation is reducing labor costs.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market rate is a function of supply and demand. Unless the market is regulated.

Right. Demand is fairly rigid from companies who need the labor. But they, as for-profit entities, want to maximize shareholder value, so instead of paying market rate for labor when the market rate is high, companies attempt to decrease the market rate by increasing labor supply through a variety of means - lobbying for modern indentured servitude (H1b's), shipping jobs overseas, etc. This stands in direct contrast…

> modern indentured servitude

Can confirm those targeted by H1B visas, etc don't think like that at all. I was in the US for a while on a F1 visa, which allowed me to work for a couple years, and I was super grateful for the opportunity. Had a couple positions with wages I heard some ranting was "too low", while I found it very livable and was even able to save a significant amount. I can imagine it being very similar for others who've come from places where earnings really are a pittance for many.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#109

> If tech talent can’t come to the U.S., American companies will go where the talent is. LOL! They're going to send the jobs where the wages are cheaper, and that's exactly what they're doing. IIRC, my employer stopped offering new H1-B sponsorships in most cases, after they opened an office in India (10+ years ago). They didn't open the office because they had a hard time hiring in the US. They opened it because the…

At a given level of skills, the company will favor the cheapest employees. At a given level of salary (e.g. US market), the company will find the best possible candidates (most of them are foreigners, for simple statistical reasons). Maybe there's a confusion that an "US" company should somehow be loyal to the US. This isn't the case, big publicly traded corporations work for the shareholders. They don't own anything…

> Maybe there's a confusion that an "US" company should somehow be loyal to the US. This isn't the case, big publicly traded corporations work for the shareholders. They don't [owe] anything to the US graduate who's looking for a job.

That's not true. A US company should be loyal to the US: the fact that they are not is political dysfunction.

China, for all its faults, gets that, and it makes sure its companies are loyal to China. They're also in the process of burying the US economically and technologically. The US is falling behind in industry after industry, and its not creating new, sustainable technological edges at a sufficient rate. That's partially because the shareholder-mercenary American companies repeatedly make deals with the much more strategic China, that weaken themselves and America in the medium to long term.

> What is ironic is that this model has been forced to the world by the US, and nobody cared when it affected the manual workers. Now that it affects the educated elite, it's suddenly unacceptable.

It was always unacceptable. It's just that too-many idiot software engineers confused themselves for capitalist barons, because they had a 401k and a higher-than-average salary.

Re: Silicon Valley can't import talent like before. So it's exporting jobs

#110
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The language people use is funny. When companies offshore skilled factory jobs to foreign countries, they call that "offshoring." But when it comes to programmers, they call it "going where the talent is." They act like programmers are in a different class than machinists.

In some ways they are. For a bit of time I worked offshore for a company in the US. That was pure cost cutting, I was making probably around 5x-10x less than someone with similar skills in the US. After a while I landed a job that required me to migrate to a different country. I actually make more here than the average salary for a local engineer. I don't know many machinists that are hired from halfway across the gl…

I don't know about machinists but I do know about (and know one personally) welders with certain specialties that can basically name their price. Such as the ones that can fix gear in running steelplants where shutting the thing down would require a rebuild.
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