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Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

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Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#101

Post by mindslight »

ratrace wrote: post #100
mindslight wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in this case it would be "is" rather than "could." Maybe Thiel himself doesn't partake in the forbidden underage fruit (although I don't see why we would rule that out, as it seems to be how the Epstein club binds its members). But then Thiel isn't set up to be the king either, right? But yes such a critique would be interesting! I think all of Moldbug's florid prose about enlightened monarchism would land much…

Tens of thousands of years of political history and the only known paranoia-fueled scandal and suspicion of the elite being immoral pedophiles that I'm aware of is currently happening in a democracy, because a guy who based his identity on knowing as many other powerful people as possible happened to know many powerful people (really??? no way!), and anti-capitalists are desperate for moral superiority so they're wil…

You're saying that monarchies never had perverted debauchery? It sounds like you need to read a little more broadly, rather than just contemporary writings that seek to burn down all of Chesterton's fences.

And keep in mind that the monarchies of old were still constrained by religion, and by the lack of digital communications! What is being pushed today is better characterized as autocracy. The "monarchy" label is merely meant to evoke simpler-seeming times that are comfortably in the past.

Also I think you meant "capitalists" rather than "anti-capitalists". That people who were successful under capitalism want to move to a different system does not imply that their favored system is also capitalist! If monarchy/autocracy is "capitalist" then North Korea is also "capitalist" and the word is meaningless.

(also it seems like you're still in denial about the implications of Epstein's emails, regardless who was or was not partaking in the minors)

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#102

Post by wmeredith »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #98
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a certain personality to continue hoarding wealth even when you know that it comes from exploiting others. The reason why they can't just not do demonstrably evil things is that they have relied on doing evil things to get to where they are. The kind of person that thinks "I've got more than enough money, I might as well use it to help others" doesn't get to be a billionaire.

Exactly. The wife too, "If I were a billionaire…" I have to stop her right there. I stop myself there too. Neither one of us could, in any iteration of life, become billionaires. (There's a time-travel story for someone. Like the movie Primer but with one person who round-trips through time—placing stock bets and other investments in order to become wealthy. When they screw up an investment they get a do-over. Life a…

You may be interested in the excellent film "About Time". It has a similar, though not exactly the same, premise and conclusion.

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#103

Post by yndoendo »

iancmceachern wrote: post #92

It's so weird to me that these folks don't just retire with a bag of money to a nice beach house and enjoy life. They're always seeming to meddle. And in doing so they take away our, and their peace. It's like they're troubled deeply and they need us to be also? Why can't they just not do demonstrably evil, deeply wrong things?

The saying _Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison_ should transformed to _Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising the ultra wealthy_.

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#104

Post by ratrace »

mindslight wrote: post #101
ratrace wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tens of thousands of years of political history and the only known paranoia-fueled scandal and suspicion of the elite being immoral pedophiles that I'm aware of is currently happening in a democracy, because a guy who based his identity on knowing as many other powerful people as possible happened to know many powerful people (really??? no way!), and anti-capitalists are desperate for moral superiority so they're wil…

You're saying that monarchies never had perverted debauchery? It sounds like you need to read a little more broadly, rather than just contemporary writings that seek to burn down all of Chesterton's fences. And keep in mind that the monarchies of old were still constrained by religion, and by the lack of digital communications! What is being pushed today is better characterized as autocracy . The "monarchy" label is…

> Also I think you meant "capitalists" rather than "anti-capitalists".

No, I'm very much talking about talibanized socialists/communists/whatever they want to particularly call themselves. "Eat the rich" has become "The rich eat babies" because it doesn't matter what you try and get people to believe as long as they align themselves with your side and against the people you don't like. The Big Lie of our times, perhaps?

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#105

Post by mindslight »

ratrace wrote: post #104
mindslight wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that monarchies never had perverted debauchery? It sounds like you need to read a little more broadly, rather than just contemporary writings that seek to burn down all of Chesterton's fences. And keep in mind that the monarchies of old were still constrained by religion, and by the lack of digital communications! What is being pushed today is better characterized as autocracy . The "monarchy" label is…

> Also I think you meant "capitalists" rather than "anti-capitalists". No, I'm very much talking about talibanized socialists/communists/whatever they want to particularly call themselves. "Eat the rich" has become "The rich eat babies" because it doesn't matter what you try and get people to believe as long as they align themselves with your side and against the people you don't like. The Big Lie of our times, perha…

> I'm very much talking about talibanized socialists/communists/whatever they want to particularly call themselves.

So you're just bashing a strawman that you've pigeonholed all opposition into? Okay then...

We had a previous exchange that I ended up dropping. I was a bit sorry about that because I thought it would have been interesting to critique "universalism" on its own merits, rather than the term generally only being mentioned by its detractors.

(For context here I was reading Moldbug while he was writing, and spent a bunch of time internalizing other reactionary writings. I actually credit Moldbug with my transition from a right-Libertarian to an unaligned libertarian that sees left vs right as mere modes of thinking, each with their own merits)

But after seeing how quickly this conversation went downhill, I'm not sure that conversation would have been terribly productive either!

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#106

Post by mindslight »

estearum wrote: post #60
vintermann wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are, but Thiel is not one of them. Or rather, there's little reason to think the nutjob beliefs he presents to you are his sincerely held nutjob beliefs. You run into people sometimes, where you realize they're testing the waters constantly to figure out where they have you and what they can get away with.

Nah, I've met him. He believes plenty of nutjob shit.

Traditional response to a non-rich person saying nutjob shit: Are you a fucking idiot?

Traditional response to a rich person saying nutjob shit: That's really interesting, especially as it connects to this thing I am working on that needs funding

Facebook's modern response to anyone saying nutjob shit: Check out this other nutjob shit

ChatGPT's modern response to anyone saying nutjob shit: You've nailed it. You're thinking about this exactly how a professional philosopher would.

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#107

Post by sigwinch »

iancmceachern wrote: post #92

It's so weird to me that these folks don't just retire with a bag of money to a nice beach house and enjoy life. They're always seeming to meddle. And in doing so they take away our, and their peace. It's like they're troubled deeply and they need us to be also? Why can't they just not do demonstrably evil, deeply wrong things?

Well the Forbes Top 1000 (which has a lower threshold of $3.8 B) is missing 30-200 wealthy but totally obscure people. That proportion is close to what HN might consider "smart".

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#108

Post by rchaud »

iancmceachern wrote: post #92

It's so weird to me that these folks don't just retire with a bag of money to a nice beach house and enjoy life. They're always seeming to meddle. And in doing so they take away our, and their peace. It's like they're troubled deeply and they need us to be also? Why can't they just not do demonstrably evil, deeply wrong things?

Because the sample size for "mega-rich" selects for more psychopaths per thousand people than the sample of people who are "just rich".

You can get "just rich" by being a doctor, or a partner at an IT consulting firm, without screwing people over.

But to be "mega-rich", you have to be OK with screwing people over any chance you get. Over time, that behavioural trait has a compounding effect where you don't see things as "right" and "wrong" anymore. That perspective is accelerated further as their money and power insulate them from consequences due to the political and legal latitude it can buy.

Bill Gates plotted to dilute Paul Allen's Microsoft shares because "he wasn't pulling his weight" when he was undergoing cancer treatment. Goldman Sachs' top legal counsel Kathryn Ruemmler accepted expensive handbags from Epstein and called him "uncle" in communications after he was re-arrested on trafficking charges. Bezos, Musk, Zuck, Ellison...need I say more?

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#109

Post by Hikikomori »

jacquesm wrote: post #69
vintermann wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are, but Thiel is not one of them. Or rather, there's little reason to think the nutjob beliefs he presents to you are his sincerely held nutjob beliefs. You run into people sometimes, where you realize they're testing the waters constantly to figure out where they have you and what they can get away with.

Strong disagree, he's one of them, and he means it. The myth that these guys are 'really smart' should die, they're good at grifting, but they're not so smart they can't have nutjob beliefs and when they say what they think and it is negative believing them will not lead to a less true picture of the individual.

Smart people are also good at convincing themselves.

Re: Peter Thiel: 2,436 emails with Epstein from 2014 to 2019

#110

Post by ratrace »

mindslight wrote: post #105
ratrace wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also I think you meant "capitalists" rather than "anti-capitalists". No, I'm very much talking about talibanized socialists/communists/whatever they want to particularly call themselves. "Eat the rich" has become "The rich eat babies" because it doesn't matter what you try and get people to believe as long as they align themselves with your side and against the people you don't like. The Big Lie of our times, perha…

> I'm very much talking about talibanized socialists/communists/whatever they want to particularly call themselves. So you're just bashing a strawman that you've pigeonholed all opposition into? Okay then... We had a previous exchange that I ended up dropping. I was a bit sorry about that because I thought it would have been interesting to critique "universalism" on its own merits, rather than the term generally only…

> So you're just bashing a strawman that you've pigeonholed all opposition into?

If you think radicalized left-wingers are a strawman, you live in a separate universe from mine. Unfortunately, I live in the one where I have to wake up and see flyers around my town unironically claiming Trump ate kids.

Can we swap?

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