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Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

nytimes.com

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Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#101

Post by kelseyfrog »

api wrote: post #79
outside1234 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you are saying is that these places have not built enough housing. That sounds like the actual problem, not the population size.

“We will do literally anything to make housing more affordable except build more of it.” Forget where I first saw that but it’s absolutely true. The left will try rent control, subsidies, taxes and prohibitions against speculation, banning AirBnB, etc. The right will try mass deportations and population caps. Nobody will build more housing because that would work, and home owners are incentivized not to do anything t…

How? I can't seem to affect any control the factors that constraint housing. I want to build more, but short of becoming a developer myself, I'm powerless. Even if I were a developer, I'd likely be subject to the same structural forces.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#102

Post by nec4b »

Snow_Falls wrote: post #94
palmaltd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As those populations are known... What a horrible calumny to casually post on a ostensibly politically-neutral website! Absolutely shameful.

This website is notorious for these sorts of unexamined assumptions.

Assumption are already well examined. You just don't like the conclusions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#Birthplace_of_p...

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#103

Post by ndriscoll »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #99
rendang wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support YIMBYism for ones own countrymen but I don't see the need to fit as many people as possible in your country. A Switzerland with 25 million people will be a worse place to live regardless of whether the housing supply keeps up

Only the market can decide what's better or worse. Revealed preference is truer than words.

Wouldn't a referendum to limit immigration be the way to reveal their preference? Obviously immigrants would tautologically prefer to move there. How is a citizen to "vote" against that via the market? Discriminate and refuse to rent/sell to any immigrants? Charge them more to try to offset their perceived loss of utility? What portion of the country is even in a position to be asked the question via the market?

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#104

Post by Youden »

toshinoriyagi wrote: post #70
FranklinJabar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is a state. Talking about what they're "allowed" to do is just meaningless. But, it does seem like a terrible place to live. I fear for the immigrants who form the basis of the economy.

I don't think immigrants make up the basis of the Swiss economy. Looking at their demographic data[1], it was pretty strongly European dominated for a very long time, and is still ~80% European. When people talk about immigrants in this context, I don't think they mean people from the US, but lower socioeconomic asylum-seekers and refugees etc. from the middle-east. It definitely seems their economy was built on Euro…

It depends somewhat on the specific campaign but generally in right-leaning Swiss politics, "immigrant" includes Europeans as well. I think that's definitely the case in this initiative since the text of the initiative requires ending freedom of movement with the EU.

They really don't like asylum seekers either though. Several of their arguments reference asylum seekers specifically: https://nachhaltigkeitsinitiative.ch/argumente/

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#105

Post by Snow_Falls »

nec4b wrote: post #98
Snow_Falls wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't know if you've lived in an Islamic country but I have. In fact I was born there and spent more than half my life under Islamic law" are you aware that not all islamic countries are the same, just as all christian countries are not the same. Perhaps you've let your view of your bubble in your home country colour your view of all others. I've been to muslim countries, most people don't care all that much about…

>>"Islam's objective is to grow and convert as many people as possible" is it? says who? Do you not learn anything about Islam in schools where you live? I'm sure you must have spent at least few hours at History class covering Islam expansion starting with Mohamed. >> What do you even mean by "family values", send woman back to the kitchen and that'll make people have kids? I doubt that's what you mean so what is yo…

"Do you not learn anything about Islam in schools where you live? I'm sure you must have spent at least few hours at History class covering Islam expansion starting with Mohamed." I am ex-muslim, I am aware of islamic history. And what of it? Do christians want to crusade for the levant still? Why are you pointing to literal ancient history?

"You want more people from cultures who think exactly like that" Many don't think like this. I do not want or not want them.

"You believe Muslim women should be baby factories for the West." No I don't, why would you think otherwise?

On second though, you simply extracted what things you could best insult me with from my reply and put words in my mouth, I will no longer be engaging in this. Goodbye.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#106

Post by fooker »

jeffbee wrote: post #41
_diyar wrote: post #27

Context as a Swiss person: One of the strongest political parties in Switzerland today is the SVP (german acronym) which is right-wing. It has won a strong plurality in national elections for easily a decade. This vote, however, does not stem from the federal (or even state-level) government, but instead is an initiative launched by a group of conservative politicians which happen to be part of the SVP party. The Swi…

SVP "which is right-wing" may not convey the degree and nature of that alignment. Just search for "SVP propaganda posters" or read https://www.dw.com/en/far-right-party-violated-anti-racism-l... . When I lived in Switzerland I was pretty shocked by how "out" the hard right was. It was as if having been neutral in WW2 not enough of their homegrown fascists got shot, and they still had plain old Nazis kicking around, h…

> plain old Nazis kicking around, holding offices and passing laws

This happened everywhere, to an extent that is genuinely surprising to me.

Pretty much every German company and government position post WW2 is in this category. And funnily enough, a good number of American organizations.

Chile's president is the son of a Nazi.

Japan went on operating business as usual except for the invading China part.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#107

Post by rdm_blackhole »

rimbo789 wrote: post #42

Typical right wing popularism to divide people and ignore the fact they have no actual solutions. Racism is bad people. This will hurt people living in Switzerland today and those who end up there in the future.

Why always bringing back everything to racism? The people of Switzerland want to maintain the look an feel of their country as it is. How is racism the first thing you think of when no one mentionned race?

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#108

Post by fooker »

hmokiguess wrote: post #39

I support that. If you tried doing the inverse, for example, migrate to an Islamic country and bring over Christianity there, you would not be welcomed at all. I’m an expat and one thing I’ve learned is to integrate myself with the culture of the country that adopted me, I believe this shows respect and that I am aligned with its values and principles.

> bring over Christianity there

Yes, this covers about a thousand years of European history.

It's funny to see people pretending not to know the history of spreading Christianity and subsequently colonialism.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#109

Post by happytoexplain »

fooker wrote: post #108
hmokiguess wrote: post #39

I support that. If you tried doing the inverse, for example, migrate to an Islamic country and bring over Christianity there, you would not be welcomed at all. I’m an expat and one thing I’ve learned is to integrate myself with the culture of the country that adopted me, I believe this shows respect and that I am aligned with its values and principles.

> bring over Christianity there Yes, this covers about a thousand years of European history. It's funny to see people pretending not to know the history of spreading Christianity and subsequently colonialism.

>pretending not to know the history

What are you referring to in the parent comment? It sounds like you're agreeing with them, but this antagonistic part is mysterious.

Re: Switzerland to vote on capping population at 10M

#110

Post by thrance »

krthat1 wrote: post #4

"Anti foreigner sentiment"? Dear NYT, try to find an apartment in the EU or Switzerland. At best, you will get a furnished (to circumvent rent caps), overpriced 30 square meter dump that takes up 40% of your net salary. Once that problem is solved, we can talk about "sentiments".

Sure, apartments in Paris are overpriced because of immigrants buying them all. Fuck, that is so stupid. The same people parroting this anti-foreigners hate are also completely indifferent to slumlords profiteering on housing, and will support politicians who consistently side with landlords and homeowners over tenants and first buyers. Housing has never become more affordable under a right wing government.
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