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Communities are not fungible

joanwestenberg.com

101–110 of 112 posts

Re: Communities are not fungible

#101
post #42

Communities are not fungible, but they are also not permanent. Because humans are mobile, the community changes as people, institutions, infrastructure, and industries come and go over time. Even if a substantial fraction of the population never leaves the geographic boundaries that contain the community they were born in, their web of relationships constantly changes as old neighbors leave and new neighbors arrive,…

I suppose in many ways this is a deeper philosophical discussion. Your observations are correct, and as others posted, a healthy community is an ever changing one. Effectively it becomes the Community of Theseus. All its parts, the people, the technology, the geographic aspects can and maybe have changed. Is it still the same community and can it be referred to as such?

I think the authors point about history is a key element of this. If I can track how the community has evolved and changed, I can still identify that community in its current form as the sum of all its changes.

I’m not sure that holds true if an outside entity tries to dismantle and rebuild the existing community without the context of the history.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#102
post #53

When thinking about online communities I think the lack of "global" identities has dramatically hampered community migration and evolution. I fully agree with the author that you can't just pick up and move a community wholesale but irl we do see patterns of migration, disaporas, etc that bring along with them relationships and trust networks. That's been basically impossible to do online. The networks where most of…

I can’t disagree with this more. Even on discord I have four accounts for different contexts. One, my real name. Another, my gaming name. Another, my music/stage name. Another still, a different gaming name. Why? Because I don’t want people in any of those contexts knowing anything about who I am in the other contexts. This is a feature, not a bug.

How do you do this in the modern era where websites demand a unique phone number for each account? I couldn't even set up one Discord account due to the phone number requirement, which at the time wouldn't accept numbers in the country I was living.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#103

This is basically what I think of as the "fundamental problem of conservation ecology", ie. that 'conserving' an ecosystem inherently changes it. The pre-human state definitionally could never be recreated (or maintained) by human hands, it will always reflect the contributions of its human stewards. So if conservation is fundamentally impossible, what's the real goal of conservation ecology? Is it doomed to simply c…

Adding an additional thought to this. Is it conservation if you’re just trying to recreate what once was? I think your thoughts parallel what the author was saying. You can’t just recreate a community (or any ecosystem) as it once was, it will be different. I would argue conservation should be trying to prevent the unnatural end to a community/ecosystem.

Despite humans being a natural part of our planet, and thus an end to an ecosystem could be considered natural in some way, we are unique in our ability to challenge and question our natural ways. Maybe we should be exempting ourselves from the natural order of things and working to allow the natural course of an ecosystem to die out on its own. Then we have the ability to inhabit and change without having destroyed in the process.

Idk, additional things to muse on.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#104
Really good read (and thanks for the mention of the book "The Dispossessed" that I just now bought on libro.fm). The article covers a general theme that those who cause harm should be responsible.

There are so many people on the web who I probably won't meet but I feel close to because of years of interactions - the most valuable kind of community, and available once you discover a few hundred or more contacts.

Nothing particularly wrong with platforms as long as there are always 'plan B' replacements, and of course not too much value is placed anywhere out of our direct control.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#105
post #42

Communities are not fungible, but they are also not permanent. Because humans are mobile, the community changes as people, institutions, infrastructure, and industries come and go over time. Even if a substantial fraction of the population never leaves the geographic boundaries that contain the community they were born in, their web of relationships constantly changes as old neighbors leave and new neighbors arrive,…

You are not permanent either... your body cells regenerate and are replaced regularly. ship of theseus

I kind of wonder if ecosystems might be a better analogy. although ecosystems can change and adapt, they can also die.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#107
post #42

Communities are not fungible, but they are also not permanent. Because humans are mobile, the community changes as people, institutions, infrastructure, and industries come and go over time. Even if a substantial fraction of the population never leaves the geographic boundaries that contain the community they were born in, their web of relationships constantly changes as old neighbors leave and new neighbors arrive,…

You don't have to preserve a community definitely, because you can't snapshot a state of a community.

Yes, a community is always evolving, but there's a lower level culture, the textile as Westenberg puts it. Even though some people leave, their mark on the textile remains, and newcomers are got affected by that.

This is the same substance which makes "company culture", but applied in a different context. The people coming in are partly shaped by that while bringing in their own. This is what triggers that evolution. Same is true for leaving people. They'll mix what they bring to the new community they join. Oftentimes is has an effect, rarely it doesn't. As you said there are also other variables that the community can't control.

The beauty arises from that mix. The connections maybe temporary, but the effects are small, yet permanent and profound. That's the sediment which collects at the bottom, builds the history and shared values step by step.

It's not the change we shall be trying to snapshot and keep alive, but the meta-organism which happens to be and evolves over time. Nobody is trying to stop that change, but prevent the killing of these meta-organisms which forms the basic building block of a society. Because these structures becomes stronger and resilient as they evolve, regardless of who comes and goes.

Seeing the same people on your neighborhood even though you don't even talk to them creates an invisible mortar and layer of trust and safety. This is one of the most important things in a community.

You need to preserve that fabric. Not the people, connections and "state" of that community. As an extreme example, you can find this fabric between people even in the most "dangerous" neighborhoods. Because they are dangerous for outsiders. Not for the people who're living in that. There's always an equilibrium and a layer of authenticity even under all that violence and nastiness.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for discord emigres, teamspeak still exists, and for social media all you need is an old school forum that hosts videos and voila

The author of the article claims that a mere migration to a new platform does not solve the problem. It just fragments the community. I agree with that. For one or another reason not all people will migrate.

stay on discord then i suppose? if you dont like discord, staying on it is surely not an option though i assumed?

Re: Communities are not fungible

#109

Is the blinking on that page driving anyone else nuts?

I had to put a window above the page on top of that blinking cursor in the header so I could read the text. It was extremely annoying, to put it mildly.

Then I saw the footer, with other blinking cursor and a scrolling line thrown in for good measure. Awful design.

Re: Communities are not fungible

#110
Inventing implicit promises and then wondering whether they're broken by mistake or on purpose is not a good way to understand people. When people move, it's not because they want the exact same community they had before. People move from twitter to bluesky because they want a different community. People take vouchers for market rate housing because they want their kids to grow up in a different community.
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