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WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

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Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#101
post #90
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make that "every vibrating surface can be a potential microphone ..."

The laser on a hotel window experiment comes to mind.

with a high speed camera any vibrating reflective object like a potato chips bag can become a weak microphone if you have line of sight even behind a soundproof window: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKXOucXB4a8

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

Yeah, it can and will be refined, but the major limiting factor is resolution. Wi-Fi radio waves are just too big to get a very clear image.

for now ...

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#104

How good is ethernet over electrical sockets these days. I had one about 15 years ago maybe, but it wasn't that good. Has tech changed. I'd use it over my wifi setup if its was fast.

This tech is known as BPL(broadband over powerline) if you want to look further into it.

I used the regular home power stuff many years ago and the speeds were pretty bad and the network loss was unreliable.

My understanding is that it has improved in some circumstances, but if the connection ends up "hopping" through your breaker you get back to garbage speeds.

In theory you can get 2 Gbps speeds, but in practice it seems like still around 500 Mbps. I don't know if the loss has improved but it was a significant problem before, since even a low loss will render a connection unusable.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#105
post #51
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern phones connect with a randomized MAC address. So yes, you can track a person around, but you will need another system (like the WiFi login page) to match MAC to identity.

Really? I thought it was only I phones that did that though?

Android has been doing this for a while, too

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#106
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resolution and positional accuracy are very poor. It’s more like ‘an approximate bag of water detector’. Gait analysis is complete fiction. Especially with a non-visual approach like this.

Given the number of gait analysis publications over several decades using varying techniques, can you recommend a good review article disproving all of them?

I don’t think anyone has ever tried to publish something disproving all of the gait analysis claims. That would be an odd sort of thing. But I have not seen anything come to something that we could call productized and reliable. It’s relatively easy to publish theoretical papers. Much harder to show it working reliably in the wild.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it can and will be refined, but the major limiting factor is resolution. Wi-Fi radio waves are just too big to get a very clear image.

for now ...

No this is fixed by physics. 5ghz waves are about 60mm wavelength.

Your resolution limit is about 30mm as a result.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#108
post #28

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

Yes, you won't be able to do this on normal wifi traffic typically either, you need to send specific packets at a high enough rate (in between normal internet traffic) in order to sense with any accuracy, as I also remarked earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46976849

There'll be an update where a first responder can send a special packet to an SSID that will enable these high rate packets without needing to join the wifi. It'll be secure where only the good guys will know about it so that it won't be able to be used nefariously. /s

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#109

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

Only if wifi is radically increased in frequency, power, directionality or antenna size. And i mean way beyond practicallity. It would be easier to identify people by the sounds of thier footsteps, something easily done through anything with a microphone. With three microphones, you can track that movement to the inch.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#110
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for now ...

No this is fixed by physics. 5ghz waves are about 60mm wavelength. Your resolution limit is about 30mm as a result.

There are techniques that can reduce that limit when you have multiple signals, though whether they can be combined with this technique isn’t clear.
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