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Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

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Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#101

Post by adastra22 »

procone wrote: post #14
soldoutcold wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am looking forward to UnixFromScratch and Year of Unix on the desktop as Linux more and more sells itself out to the overstuffed software virus that is System D.

I know this is a bit tongue in cheek, but the systemd hate is so old and tiresome at this point. I need my systems to work. Not once in my career have I experienced a showstopping issue with systemd. I cannot say the same for sysV.

My experience, and the common experience I’ve read, is the exact opposite. Run scripts worked. They always worked. They were simple. I’ve run into so many difficulties with systemd, on the other hand. I gave up managing my own server as a result.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#102

Post by cyberax »

nomel wrote: post #89
cyberax wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ohh... I have sooooo many issues with systemd. The core systemd is fine, and the ideas behind it are sound. But it lacks any consistency. It's not a cohesive project with a vision, it's a collection of tools without any overarching idea. This is reflected in its documentation, it's an OK reference manual, but go on and try to build a full picture of system startup. To give you concrete examples: 1. Systemd has mount…

5 and 6 sounds like good candidates for a bug reports/PR, if there's not already some "right" way to do it.

They're already reported. And ignored. Have you _seen_ the systemd issue backlog?

The iSCSI loop issue: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/34164 It keeps popping up again and again and is summarily ignored.

The remote FS detection also came up multiple times, and the maintainers don't care.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#103

Post by its_magic »

M95D wrote: post #97
its_magic wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I will soon be releasing a distro that is free of systemd, wayland, dbus, and other troublesome software. It is built starting from LFS in 2019, and now consists of over 1,500 packages, cross compiling to x86-32/64, powerpc32/64, and others if I had hardware to test. It's built entirely from shell scripts which are clean, organized, and easy to read. I need help to get the system ready for release in 60-9…

How did you get GTK3/4 to work without dbus?

I got rid of dbus in GTK3 by patching the code so that the "accessibility bridge" (to ATK) can be disabled. GTK4 is beneath contempt and will not be supported.

The system uses GTK2 wherever possible, or GTK3 when not. I will either port everything to GTK2 later or create some kind of shim library. Help wanted here. Porting back to GTK2 isn't hard, I just don't have time to work on any of that at the moment.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#104

Post by p_ing »

nine_k wrote: post #78
cf100clunk wrote: post #2

This is a mindblower. To quote Bruce Dubbs: ''As a personal note, I do not like this decision. To me LFS is about learning how a system works. Understanding the boot process is a big part of that. systemd is about 1678 "C" files plus many data files. System V is "22" C files plus about 50 short bash scripts and data files. Yes, systemd provides a lot of capabilities, but we will be losing some things I consider impor…

Runit is 5474 SLOCs. Most source files are shorter than 100 lines. Works like a charm. Implements an init system; does not replace DNS, syslog, inetd, or anything else. Systemd, by construction, is a set of Unix-replacing daemons. An ideal embedded system setup is kernel, systemd, and the containers it runs (even without podman). This makes sense, especially given the Red Hat's line of business, but it has little rel…

> but it has little relation to the Unix design

It's more like Windows! /duck

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#105

Post by greatgib »

The proof in the end that SystemD is a cancer in the Linux ecosystem. Officially it is just a stack and you can decide to use another one if you don't like it. Unofficially RedHat money ensured that other critical stacks will depend heavily on it so that you can't easily swap without replacing the whole ecosystem.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#106

Post by Timon3 »

josteink wrote: post #70
antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

> All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers. Popular desktop environments are increasingly depending on Linux-only things. KDE has officially removed support for FreeBSD in Plasma login…

> Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers.

Are you referring to the developer of Xlibre, who submitted multiple broken patches & kept breaking ABI compatibility for little to no reason[0]? Or someone else?

[0]: see discussion & linked issues in the announcement https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#107

Post by ktm5j »

josephg wrote: post #95
ktm5j wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be fair, you don't need to understand how SystemD is built to know how to use it. Unit files are pretty easy to wrap your head around, it took me a while to adjust but I dig it now. To make an analogy: another part of LFS is building a compiler toolchain. You don't need to understand GCC internals to know how to do that.

> Well to be fair, you don't need to understand how SystemD is built to know how to use it. The attitude that you don't need to learn what is inside the magic black box is exactly the kind of thing LFS is pushing against. UNIX traditionally was a "worse is better" system, where its seen as better design to have a simple system that you can understand the internals of even if that simplicity leads to bugs. Simple syst…

LFS is full of packages that fit your description of a black box. It shows you how to compile and configure packages, but I don't remember them diving into the code internals of a single one.

I understand not wanting to shift from something that is wholly explainable to something that isn't, but it's not the end of the world.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#108

Post by nomel »

cyberax wrote: post #102
nomel wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 and 6 sounds like good candidates for a bug reports/PR, if there's not already some "right" way to do it.

They're already reported. And ignored. Have you _seen_ the systemd issue backlog? The iSCSI loop issue: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/34164 It keeps popping up again and again and is summarily ignored. The remote FS detection also came up multiple times, and the maintainers don't care.

> and the maintainers don't care.

I'm not sure that's fair. I think better proof of this would be a rejected PR rather than a neglected bug report.

This is Linux, after all. Problems found with specific hardware are almost always solved by people with that hardware, not the maintainers, who are usually busy with the 99%.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#109

Post by its_magic »

p_ing wrote: post #104
nine_k wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Runit is 5474 SLOCs. Most source files are shorter than 100 lines. Works like a charm. Implements an init system; does not replace DNS, syslog, inetd, or anything else. Systemd, by construction, is a set of Unix-replacing daemons. An ideal embedded system setup is kernel, systemd, and the containers it runs (even without podman). This makes sense, especially given the Red Hat's line of business, but it has little rel…

> but it has little relation to the Unix design It's more like Windows! /duck

I have been saying for years that Microsoft would eventually deprecate WinNT and switch Windows over to a Linux foundation. Things seem to be slowly but continually moving in that direction.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#110

Post by M95D »

its_magic wrote: post #103
M95D wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get GTK3/4 to work without dbus?

I got rid of dbus in GTK3 by patching the code so that the "accessibility bridge" (to ATK) can be disabled. GTK4 is beneath contempt and will not be supported. The system uses GTK2 wherever possible, or GTK3 when not. I will either port everything to GTK2 later or create some kind of shim library. Help wanted here. Porting back to GTK2 isn't hard, I just don't have time to work on any of that at the moment.

I'm running Gentoo without dbus and I'm stuck at gtk 3.24.34. I would love to see those patches. Your site appears to be down.
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