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In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

reuters.com

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Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#101

Post by estearum »

throw0101c wrote: post #97
hubber wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> And I'll celebrate with my lawyer if it does. LOL. Why do you assume you'll get a hearing? As Timothy Snyder (an historian of Central and Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, and the Holocaust) observed last year: > If you accept that non-citizens have no right to due process, you are accepting that citizens have no right to due process. All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due pro…

It's truly unbelievable how many allegedly intelligent people fail to grasp this basic corollary of their beliefs.

"Well I'll get due process because I just need to say I'm a citizen!"

Bro... to whom do you say that? When? In what forum? That is literally the entire point of contention!

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#102

Post by etchalon »

deeg wrote: post #94
throw0101c wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces. Why is crowd control even needed? ICE existed for many, many years before now, and them doing their job never caused crowds previously (under both R and D administrations), so what (rhetorically) changed?

Because ICE has gone way beyond arresting illegals. In Boston, for example, they stopped a naturalization ceremony literally minutes before people were to become citizens. Do you support that? https://www.wcvb.com/article/21-citizenship-oaths-canceled-f...

Bigotry, mostly. It's usually bigotry.

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#103

Post by text0404 »

hubber wrote: post #85
solid_fuel wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between seeing an immigration raid where you know whoever gets picked up is going to have access to a lawyer, be subject to proper due process, and at worst be sent back to their home country. We knew - or at least believed - that if they detained someone who was a citizen, that person would be released. Now, when we see ICE grabbing someone, we know that person probably won't have access to…

[flagged]

Exactly. Comply with the armed men and you won't die. Compliance is required for a healthy society. Just comply and you won't be hurt. Compliance is required for a functioning society. Comply and purge society of undesirables. Even if your rights are violated, comply or you will be hurt. Remember America's slogans: land of the free, home of the brave if you comply with the masked mens' orders. Remember the hacker ethos: compliance with the government is required for your safety. Otherwise, you are engaging in domestic terrorism and will be dealt with swiftly by anonymous agents of the state.

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#104

Post by scarecrowbob »

morkalork wrote: post #91
scarecrowbob wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the pleasant things, though, is that if that kind of thing is on the table you probably have some kind of moral imperative to start doing something about it. Previously I felt like a hyperbolic nerd, and now I have a whole lot of new friends all working on the same stuff. Wheee. Go team. I hate it.

>But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes

I appreciate that bit of prose.

Fortunately it feels very much the other direction, lately- more folks seeing the dangers, more willingness to take the long bet. Fewer folks at brunch.

That's a bet some of have been taking for a while, though it's oftent felt dumb, and we haven't needed a great shocking occasion to do it.

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#105

Post by pstuart »

rationalist wrote: post #80
pstuart wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think nuance is missing, you could add the nuance of agents swarming her vehicle with a high likelihood of violently extracting her from the car and detaining her. This is the upgraded version of "you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" -- where that ride may take you halfway across the country and be detained incommunicado for many days before being ejected out of the holding center and on your own…

Edit: Why the disagreement? I don't like it that people were killed, same as you all I hope. > violently extracting her from the car Isn't that what always happens when someone doesn't comply when told to exit their vehicle? Since when has not complying with an officer on the street resulted them in saying, 'Oh, okay, carry on what you were doing'? I imagine if I parked perpendicular on a road and danced while honkin…

As far as her vehicle was concerned, I've seen elsewhere that she had been parked earlier and had pulled out but was letting other vehicles go through first, waving them on.

Not complying with a masked men with guns who gave conflicting info (leave now/get out of the car) who were going to mess her up as much as they could? Really? She was trying to leave.

You should watch the video where Alex Pretti tries to protect and aid a women who was pepper sprayed by ICE officials approaching them, and then tackled and shot multiple times, and then more for good measure.

> I'm not a fan of anything that's going on, and it appears that people are trying to make things worse, not better. Why?

If you are a rationalist, you should be taking in all possible information and be prepared to change your mind as compelling evidence is presednted.

Let's work backwards from the situation: Why is ICE in Minnesota in the first place? Ostensibly because of financial fraud (not their area of interest), and more so, as a show of strength and intimidation.

Steven Miller has publicly stated that ICE has zero accountability and freedom to act as they see fit. 1st Amendment and 4th Amendments are doormats to these people. And with Alex Pretti, they now declare that 2A is null and void too.

So your position is kneel and comply regardless of why?

Edit: I didn't downvote you because I wanted to answer with dialog instead. You send some very mixed messages about not liking what's happening but also blaming the victims for their fate.

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#106

Post by tstrimple »

trhway wrote: post #7

fish rots from the head. Violence, lies and grift. The very head is convicted grifter who is openly using his position for personal enrichment. Right next - Noem - trigger happy dog shooter, and why suddenly so many DHS ads with her ? : https://www.propublica.org/article/kristi-noem-dhs-ad-campai... "Firm Tied to Kristi Noem Secretly Got Money From $220 Million DHS Ad Contracts The company is run by the husband of No…

Naw. The rot has been here since the country was founded. It has never been adequately treated. We had our best opportunity after the civil war, but decided to throw away the antibiotics and just live with it. It took a long time, but now seems terminal.

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#107

Post by hubber »

text0404 wrote: post #103
hubber wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Exactly. Comply with the armed men and you won't die. Compliance is required for a healthy society. Just comply and you won't be hurt. Compliance is required for a functioning society. Comply and purge society of undesirables. Even if your rights are violated, comply or you will be hurt. Remember America's slogans: land of the free, home of the brave if you comply with the masked mens' orders. Remember the hacker eth…

[flagged]

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#108

Post by hubber »

throw0101c wrote: post #97
hubber wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> And I'll celebrate with my lawyer if it does. LOL. Why do you assume you'll get a hearing? As Timothy Snyder (an historian of Central and Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, and the Holocaust) observed last year: > If you accept that non-citizens have no right to due process, you are accepting that citizens have no right to due process. All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due pro…

[flagged]

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#109

Post by jaredklewis »

throw0101c wrote: post #67
chasil wrote: post #3

Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces. They should augment deployed enforcement with those who have such expertise.

> Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces. Why is crowd control even needed? ICE existed for many, many years before now, and them doing their job never caused crowds previously (under both R and D administrations), so what (rhetorically) changed?

Well they didn’t wear masks and grab people off the street and shoved them into unmarked vans under previous administrations.

Re: In 6 violent encounters, evidence contradicts immigration officials' narratives

#110

Post by text0404 »

hubber wrote: post #107
text0404 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Comply with the armed men and you won't die. Compliance is required for a healthy society. Just comply and you won't be hurt. Compliance is required for a functioning society. Comply and purge society of undesirables. Even if your rights are violated, comply or you will be hurt. Remember America's slogans: land of the free, home of the brave if you comply with the masked mens' orders. Remember the hacker eth…

[flagged]

Truly ridiculous. I briefly wondered if you actually believe this rhetoric, but then I saw your three-day-old account.

Not going to debate with someone who doesn't have the courage to stand behind their convictions. Your account is a throwaway and only exists to launder white supremacist talking points. Best of luck with your new American government, we all know it ended well for the leaders of Italy and Germany.

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